My phone call with steve parry

[Derwin]

Hello! I am going to be giving Steve Parry a call today or tomorrow, and will be asking him a bunch of questions about the progress being made on the V1. I have a few questions right off the top of my head that I know you all would like to know about, but I thought it best to put this to the membership.

IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION THAT YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO ASK STEVE, PLEASE POST IT TO THIS THREAD.

I want to gather together all of your questions, and then present them to steve on behalf of this club. I will preface our conversation with the fact that whatever answers that I get will be made known to the entire membership. I can create a special "password protected" area to post the conversation so that only official members of this club will be able to view it. But I'll ask Steve first if this is what he wants. If, on the other hand, he requests that I NOT make our conversation available to the 600+ members of this club, then the conversation will end. I don't see any use in discussing things if I cannot share the anwers with all of you.

So, that being said, please post your questions here. I really need to put all of the questions together within the next 24 hours before I make the call. Hopefully we can create OUR OWN update! Thanks for your help.

Derwin

[RAN]

Great idea Derwin, and thanks for the opportunity!

I really only have 1 question....

Which is more important to VV? The X-Prize? Or getting the V-1 into production? (75mpg might keep it out of the X competition, but with the right performance/EV range it would still be a winner in the marketplace, and it could reach that marketplace sooner if they weren't changing horses in mid-stream, trying to hit the X requirements. Wouldn't it be better to have the V-1 available to buy when the X-Prize competition starts??)

[Mike kZ]

Bytemare called him: " I talked to Steve on Friday. A condition of the conversation was that I not repeat his answers here."

What makes you think he will let you post your conversation? I hope he does, I'd like to hear what he says! I guess you should ask him what new info he is willing to let us know.

[plm]

I agree with RAN but with a slight twist - the X-Prize competition will give VV a huge amount of credibality in the market place, but I am concerned that the race will conflict with development & production?

The prize money to you & I is significant but a couple of million dollars will only add a couple of weeks to R&D but will not advance the production of the V1.

I am also wondering how far along they are with the protype power plant we saw pictures on the sandrail but fitting that into the V1 is going to be difficult so I would like to know how that is coming along & if they had started working on the tooling for the molds & dies (this will be the most time comsuming aspect of setting up mass production).

[Timon]

Serial vrs parallel hybrid. Why the change?

[Derwin]

Bytemare called him: " I talked to Steve on Friday. A condition of the conversation was that I not repeat his answers here."

What makes you think he will let you post your conversation? I hope he does, I'd like to hear what he says! I guess you should ask him what new info he is willing to let us know.

Well, I really have no clue whether he will allow me to reveal everything to the club members. But that will be a prerequisite of our conversation. If he says that he won't, then I guess the phone call will be very brief!

But I think I can offer something that byteware cannot.... I am willing to create a PRIVATE from within this club, where I can post all of the information that he gives me. This private forum will closed to the general public, and ONLY MEMBERS OF THIS CLUB will be able to access it. And only members who request the PASSWORD will be able to see the information. It will, of course, be password protected.

I am actually giving him a way to address the concerns of many people by simply speaking to 1 person. And he has no fear that this information will be widely broadcast on the internet to the general public.

So, hopefully he will be open to the idea. But if he isn't, then the conversation will not go any further.

Derwin

[RAN]

I agree with RAN but with a slight twist - the X-Prize competition will give VV a huge amount of credibality in the market place, but I am concerned that the race will conflict with development & production?

That's the whole problem plm. It already has conflicted with the development. For the last 3 months, they've been "spinning their wheels," looking at changing powerplant horses in mid-stream. If not for the X-Prize, then why? The V-1 has always been planned around serial hybrid power, and everyone has applauded them for it. Why would they now spend months looking at a frankly inferior parallel drivetrain? The only other reason that comes to mind is to save $$; the II hybrid will require far fewer expensive batteries, but they knew that all along.


The prize money to you & I is significant but a couple of million dollars will only add a couple of weeks to R&D but will not advance the production of the V1.

I am also wondering how far along they are with the protype power plant we saw pictures on the sandrail but fitting that into the V1 is going to be difficult so I would like to know how that is coming along & if they had started working on the tooling for the molds & dies (this will be the most time comsuming aspect of setting up mass production).

Apparently, the serial hybrid powertrain from the sandrail is.... still in the sandrail. I think it's also safe to say that not a lot of die-making has been going on the last few months. They're still working out the type of powerplant they're going to use!
Yes, the X-Prize would be great publicity... so would having production model V-1's available to buy during the X-Prize competition. Don't forget, mostly none of the competitor's vehicles will be in production during the competition.

[RAN]

Derwin, I wouldn't hold my breath on him allowing us to hear the information. I don't honestly think they know WTF they're doing at the moment. It's also pretty obvious that there's been a behind-the-scenes struggle going on there, and apparently NGEN won (the Other Golden Rule usually applies: He who has the Gold makes the Rules). We haven't heard a word from Ian publicly for months.

[Tim Hodgetts]

Hi Derwin,

I'm sure that a lot of people are concerned about how the Global economic situation is impacting on VV. Certainly Europe is hurting badly. I would like to know when VV will go into production, but when or if will we see them in Europe?

If its down to funding, let me know because a VV side by side production facility in Europoe/Asia to satisfy the hunger over here is do-able I promise you.

Wish him and the team all the best in these difficult times, I'm rooting for it to happen!

[ziggy951]

Series or Parallel?

Possible fuels used in the ice?

Estimated overall range?

Estimated 0-60?

Battery type or battery specs?

Do you have the body panel molds ready?
- Have you used the body panel molds?

Have you decided on front and rear wheel sizes?
-Can the wheels be changed by the end user to a different size?

What company is making the ICE for the V1?

What company is making the electric drive/controller?
-Specs?Kw?Torque?Size?

Will you have different versions on the release date or are you focusing on a single version for now?
-If so what are the differences?

Rear-view mirrors or display and a rear camera?

LEDs or incandescent for the external lights?
-Which and where?

Have any slalom times?

Whats your favorite pizza?





Z

[devilwearsprada]

What about the phase 'B' funding? What's the next phase that VV needs to go through in order to start producing the V1?

[Miracleman89]

1.) Have you secured a facility for production?
2.) What was so wrong with the in-wheel motors that they were dropped from the vehicle?
3.) Is the trailer idea still being considered?
4.) Why the switch from serial hybrid to parallel hybrid?
5.) What are the current est. performance specs on the V1?
6.) Have they chosen a name for the V1 or have they decided to keep it V1?
7.) We saw pictures of body panels being formed. What happened to the alpha? Is there at least a fully assembled V1 shell that he can show us some pictures of?
8.) When the forum started, it was designed to have open communication between VV and it's enthusiast, allowing us a chance to help in the development of this amazing vehicle. So, why has/did communication stop/stopped?
9.) Are the people in the forum still considered to be better then any focus group they could have?
10.) Why are we now talking to Mr. Parry and not Ian?

[ziggy951]

So I guess its tomorrow? Or are you just so befuddled with the responses you got that you are attempting to put it into a constructive paragraph?


Or...did you pass out because you got amazing news that puts the release date some time around next week?2thumb:up








Z

[Derwin]

Yep. I'm going to give him a call tomorrow. I went out to Inwood Country Club in Joliet today, and played a round of golf with my 77 year old Dad. I shot a 92, which actually isn't bad for me! So, I didn't have time to give Mr. Parry a call. But I'll ring his number tomorrow for sure, and I'll have all your questions handy, along with a few of my own.

Hopefully the conversation will last longer than the first 10 second introduction! But I'm not sure about that.... du:n:n:o(

I know the FIRST thing that I will ask him is if he will allow me to share everything with all of the members of this club. If he wants to silence me ( :shup: ) , than I might just have to zap him! :zap2:

Anyway, we'll see what happens tomorrow. I'll be giving him a call at about 11am Chicago time, which is 9am "left" coast time.

Derwin

[MVRacing]

Hi Derwin,
I'll be waiting to hear the results of your contact. Questions have pretty well been covered. Main thing will probably come down to what he is willing to share with us.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Derwin,

If the answer to question #1 is, "No, you can't share this with anyone". Then question #2 should be if he's willing to take a list of questions that the Communications Team can address. If we can't get news out of SEP or Ian directly, then at least we can test their sincerity by measuring how long it takes the Communications Team to answer - or if.

[RAN]

Don't take this the wrong way anyone... but if RM completes the 2nd Dagne prototype while these people are still playing 20 questions, I will stand firmly in the Dagne camp.

[trice1one]

Regarding New York,

We want to know in here in NY, why the V1 will only be available in CAL. and not all over the country for loyal VV members. I've spread the word in NY and at least 50 people that I've talked to are waiting. I think it would be a shame. The V1 will be one of the game changers if not the game changer in the automobile market. Look at all of the car industries sales. NY does not want to wait

[ziggy951]

Don't take this the wrong way anyone... but if RM completes the 2nd Dagne prototype while these people are still playing 20 questions, I will stand firmly in the Dagne camp.

And I think you will be fighting tooth and nail for your spot on the order list as the great paradigm shifts, so to speak. :)





Z

[Charles]

I've just had a brief scan of the threads on this site and I can't understand why people are still posting. Surely if we don't post then it might give someone at VV the idea that their fan base has left the building. I understand when you have an idea and need funding there is a very strong chance that the funder will want some input to the design. This is the risk you take and if you don't like the terms you look for other investors. Ian has obviously lost control of VV and with it the dream is being diluted. The guys at RM look to have their feet on the ground and are pushing to develop a production vehicle with very little hype. On a shoestring budget surely VV could have done the same rather than wasting money on pubicity stunts like the NY motor show. FGS $6 million is a lot of money RM have a running vehicle for $2 million.

[Charles]

Sorry chaps I had a bit of a senior moment when I sent my last post:confused:. I thought I was in the Flytheroad site rather than the Flytheroadclub site. What I meant to say was why are we posting the the Flytheroad site we might as well talk amongst ourselves on the club site.

[waboom]

One door, on the left, and does it open normally?

How's instrumentation coming along? Are you leaning toward analog or digital?

[Derwin]

Well, I called Steve Parry today, but he was not available. His secretary told me that he is "traveling" at the moment. So what I did is put together an email to Mr. Parry containing all of your questions. Hopefully he will read it and respond. I guess now we will just have to wait and see what happens.

I will try calling him again tomorrow, though.

Derwin

[danbucks]

It might be to late, but include if you can in further calls:
-how far is the EV-only range?
-if 0 or really low: have they reconsidered what was discussed many moons ago: an EV-only, with a trailer engine for long-hauls?

[Traverse]

Will I be able to finance and insure the Venture Vehicle? i.e. will they know what I'm talking about when I fill in the block of the loan or insurance form like a regular car. I do both banking and insurance through USAA, which is a company that serves all the military branches and their dependants (so this question might help service members own a "Carver")

[westonlgray]

Good luck on the response. I was happy that Steve at least gave us an update. He didn't really add any new information, but at least he is trying. I will keep my fingers crossed that we get some good info.

Derwin, maybe you should ask Ian if you can post that video of the early propulsion system behind a password protected portion of the website...

[Derwin]

Well, I just heard back from Mr. Parry. He said that he would like to speak with me on the phone on Thursday, and not respond to any of the questions that I presented him in the email until then.

I got the feeling that he is open to discussing a lot of behind the scenes things that are going on, but I'm NOT sure that he would give the green light on me sharing the information with all of the club members. For this reason, I sent him an email asking him if he would allow me to post the information to a private forum in the club for members to view. I went on to say that I would PASS on the opportunity to speak with him if this were not possible. I know, I was probably stupid to say that, but I am not one that enjoys keeping any secrets....... I think I would explode in 5 days if I had to keep everything from all you guys! :mad:exploding:

So, I guess now I have to wait and see if Mr. Parry will be receptive of my response, or if he will make me stick to a promise of secrecy. If it is secrecy, then there will be no phone conversation.

By the way, it seems all is indeed well with the project, and things are going along just fine.

Derwin

[MVRacing]

Will I be able to finance and insure the Venture Vehicle? ... I do both banking and insurance through USAA, which is a company that serves all the military branches and their dependants (so this question might help service members own a "Carver")

Hi Traverse,
I also use USAA for everything. I haven't asked them about a three wheeler yet, but have had no problems insuring any of my toys/vehicles with them in the past.

[ziggy951]

I went on to say that I would PASS on the opportunity to speak with him if this were not possible.

Derwin


Not stupid man. What good is it if a single person knows the information we all want to know, but cant share it? How good is that for the community? I think its probably a good idea and I don't take any points away from you for doing so. I know I would be in physical pain if I couldn't share and of those answers with the community. It would just put everyone involved in a bad, conflicted at the very least, situation.




Z

[Miracleman89]

I once was told by a very wise man that "you are only as sick as your secrets!" I hate this secrecy horse manuer!!!! If he does this in your conversation then I propose an all out phonce call campaign. We can ask all of our members to make calls to Mr. Parry asking him the same questions over and over! I am sorry this is ridiculous! I hate it when they feel they have to hide stuff from people!

[Derwin]

As I stated earlier, I have a scheduled phone conversation with Mr. Parry on Thursday afternoon. I already informed him that I do not care to know anything about the project unless I can share it with all of the members. He then told me that he understands, and that the main purpose of the conversation will be to assure all of us that the information he posts can be trusted, and that they do not have any kind of hidden agenda. He said he will also attempt to put together a little Q&A based on the questions.

It is my opinion that they really do want to share the progress they are making, but they are truly afraid to reveal it all due to the competition out there. I have no idea if this is rational or not, but it seems this is one of their concerns.

I'll find out more on Thursday, so stay tuned!

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

As I stated earlier, I have a scheduled phone conversation with Mr. Parry on Thursday afternoon. I already informed him that I do not care to know anything about the project unless I can share it with all of the members. He then told me that he understands, and that the main purpose of the conversation will be to assure all of us that the information he posts can be trusted, and that they do not have any kind of hidden agenda. He said he will also attempt to put together a little Q&A based on the questions.

It is my opinion that they really do want to share the progress they are making, but they are truly afraid to reveal it all due to the competition out there. I have no idea if this is rational or not, but it seems this is one of their concerns.

I'll find out more on Thursday, so stay tuned!

Derwin


Well, I just heard back from Mr. Parry. He said that he would like to speak with me on the phone on Thursday, and not respond to any of the questions that I presented him in the email until then.

I got the feeling that he is open to discussing a lot of behind the scenes things that are going on, but I'm NOT sure that he would give the green light on me sharing the information with all of the club members. For this reason, I sent him an email asking him if he would allow me to post the information to a private forum in the club for members to view. I went on to say that I would PASS on the opportunity to speak with him if this were not possible. I know, I was probably stupid to say that, but I am not one that enjoys keeping any secrets....... I think I would explode in 5 days if I had to keep everything from all you guys! :mad:exploding:

So, I guess now I have to wait and see if Mr. Parry will be receptive of my response, or if he will make me stick to a promise of secrecy. If it is secrecy, then there will be no phone conversation.

Derwin


So he has agreed to answer questions from you and not ask you to keep secrets?

[MarkH]

pop:c:r:n12

[Derwin]

So he has agreed to answer questions from you and not ask you to keep secrets?

MM89, I am not 100% sure of anything at this point. All I know is that if I find out anything, then YOU will know it. Mr. Parry already understands that I do not want to have ANY information that I cannot share with you guys. That is the pretext of the upcoming conversation.

So let's just sit back and wait until Thursday to see what transpires.

Derwin

[WarpedOne]

It is my opinion that they really do want to share the progress they are making, but they are truly afraid to reveal it all due to the competition out there.

What competition? There ain't anyone making anything even remotely similar. Vanderbrink makes 500 Carvers per year. Who are they afraid of?

Even if someone else comes out with similar vehicle why would that be a problem? Do they realy think they will have troubles selling few thousands per year? If so, they'd better stop this project and start doing something else with grater marketability.

Gosh, If they don't trust their own product, who should or will?

[RAN]

It's like this: if they're really making progress, and all this "looking at various configurations" is just a smokescreen to disinform the competition, then they should just take their forum down, period, and say "we'll be back with news as the X-Prize competition nears."

If, as I believe, the silence has been over a grab for the reins at VV, then the last few months have produced no progress to speak of... which makes it, uh.... hard to speak of.

Without pictures and vids, I'm not inclined to believe much of anything that Mr Parry tells us. The BS has been spread a little too thick thus far.

[Derwin]

WarpedOne.... What I said is only MY opinion. Mr. Parry didn't say that this was the case. I could be wrong. Hopefully we will find out more details on Thursday.


Without pictures and vids, I'm not inclined to believe much of anything that Mr Parry tells us. The BS has been spread a little too thick thus far.

Why won't you believe what Mr. Parry says? I really don't understand that kind of attitude. Also, what "BS" are you talking about? When have they been spreading BS?

Heck, I can understand a little bit of skepticism, but I really don't know why you are taking it that far. Why not just hear the guy out, and see what he has to say. Is that unreasonable?

Derwin

[RAN]

I'm not going to argue with you Derwin. I stated my opinion, and I'll let it stand.

[Derwin]

RAN,

I don't want to argue either. But I really would like to know why you said what you said. Maybe I am missing something.... it wouldn't be the first time! I just would like to know why you wouldn't trust what Mr. Parry says, and what exactly is the BS that has been spread around that you are talking about?

Again, I do not want to argue..... I just want to understand what you are saying, and obtain some information. Sometimes when we post to these forums, things are misunderstood, and that's how arguments begin. I am not wanting to argue..... I just want to know the basis for your statements so that I can understand things a little better.

Derwin

[MVRacing]

What competition? There ain't anyone making anything even remotely similar. Vanderbrink makes 500 Carvers per year.

I read some where that it was closer to 120-150/yr...sorry, can't find the reference.

[AZEqualizer]

That may be but there are different parts to the whole that could be useful to a lot of other vehicle designs and solutions that others are trying to complete. So even if it is or is not direct competitors or competitors for the same $$ or people that would buy part of a solution that was an off shoot of the project (or try to steal - reverse engineer) there is a delicate balance involved in letting verifiable information out of the bag and its ramifications. Plus you have all the stratigic partners that have their own time table for their own reasons.

It's kind of like that show Connections (a documentary television series created and narrated by science historian James Burke (http://www.flytheroadclub.com/wiki/James_Burke_%28science_historian%29))

It is amazing how one problem /solution can interconnect along with various discoveries, scientific achievements, and historical world events that eventually build off one another and bring about particular aspects of new technologies.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Right, AZE. Plus, we know about the Dagne, just up the road from Venture. I'd call them competition in exactly the same market. And that's just what we know about. I'm sure a venture capitalist like NGEN Partners is aware of many more operating in stealth mode.

And, considering that Chevy can't get the Volt to do serial hybrid for less than $40,000 (and Bob Lutz says they'll take a loss at that), I'd say any drive train innovation - ANY drive train innovation - will become a serious trade secret.

I don't excuse Venture's lack of PR in any way, sort, or form. They have a long way to go to gain back any integrity in my book. But just because they completely bungled a communications plan doesn't mean I discount the comment about competition. "Green" transportation and alternative vehicles is the hottest market alive today, so I have to cut them some slack.

[WarpedOne]

I'd call them competition in exactly the same market

And I'd call that credibility.

And again, how big is this same market? 100, 1000, 10.000 per year? Tilting 3-wheel vehicles are completely new thing, with currently 1 (one) comercial product with production in three digit numbers . Their biggest problem is public perception - strange, odd, crazy. More distinct vendors of such vehicles will only give credit to the concept. If only one man/company has a great idea one can doubt whether it realy is a great idea or just "yet another crazy gadget".

Competition starts to be a problem when market cannot take any more and someone has to die for other to prosper.

[Lumberjack]

Tilting maybe a small market but High gas mileage is not.....

[rogwild]

I guess we have 'learned' something; the ALPHA has not been 'finished' and being tested secretly to 'guard trade secrets'. The original ALPHA was 'abandoned', and work started on a NEW drive system, for reasons unknown, estimated completion date unknown.

General progress information can be divulged in such a manner as not to give away valuable technical information; like power of the engine/motor, mpg figures, performance data, etc. Again, if a company wants prospective buyers to 'wait' for their product, and possibly attract more 'Investors' in the project; it is important that they do divulge some sort of PROGRESS, when and if it is accomplished.

Lets hope that Steve keeps this in mind, when he talks to Derwin.

[AZEqualizer]

That's your interpretation of what was said and not known facts.

[RAN]

That's what Steve said. There really isn't any other way to take it.

[rogwild]

That's your interpretation of what was said and not known facts.

True; perhaps Steve will clarify. What do you 'interpret' Steve's comment; "we moved beyond the alpha work to focus all efforts on the power train best suited to meeting our mileage, performance and cost objectives."?

Sort of 'implies' to me that the original ALPHA work was 'left behind', and they are 'starting' on a different power train. YMMVdr:ive1)

[Derwin]

Yes. That is ONE WAY to interpret what he said. But what I took from it was that they simply completed (moved beyond) the alpha work and are now further along in the project. I think that is the correct way to interpret what he said, but I guess we will find out exactly what he meant tonight.

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

yep agr:1
They got what they wanted from the Alpha and now are focusing on different power trains to see what works best for power, economy, price etc.

[rogwild]

Great, perhaps he can provide a photo of the 'completed ALPHA' (power pod, 'married' to the cabin section) so we can get an idea of what it looks like.:)

Then we will know that they did indeed 'complete' the ALPHA (even if it wasn't 'working' completely).

[MikeB]

I saw an interesting quote from a QA person just the other day: "Testing is never completed, it's just abandoned." You test until you reach some sort of target (which is often just time or money). Then you move on to something else.

I think it's perfectly possible that Steve was trying to say "our objectives for the Alpha were met, now we are looking at the next question in line." Steve's post didn't sound like he was trying to break bad news to us gently, it sounded like he was happy with the progress they were making.

I suspect the money side of the management team is trying to be cautious and thorough, which would provide a proper balance to match the 'visionary' side of the management team (Ian & Howard).

We can try to read more into this, but it's more a reflection of our own personal biases than a representation of what we actually know.

[rogwild]

Yes, it would be great to really KNOW something. I hope Steve is able to 'divulge' some information (without giving out technical secrets) to let us know where the V~1 project stands.
I doubt that any serious competitor (either X-Prize or the Auto Market) will 'slow' their efforts if they learn that Vv has hit a 'stumbling block', or 'speed up' their efforts if Vv has met some success; since they should all be going 'full speed ahead' to be the FIRST TO MARKET!

[RAN]

Well. If this company can't say what they mean and mean what they say... then perhaps it *is* time for a name change here.

[Derwin]

Well, I just spent the last 35 minutes speaking with Mr. Parry. We had a very nice discussion about the progress that Venture Vehicles is making on the project, and I was very pleased with his demeanor during the entire call.

I want to share with all of you the details of the call, and will begin by answering at least ONE of the questions that I submitted to him on your behalf.

Question One: Why did VV switch decide upon a Parallel Hybrid?

Answer: The first thing Mr. Parry told me was that Venture Vehicles wants to be "Leading Edge, Not Bleeding Edge". What is meant by that is that they don't want to be the first on the block using a technology that is unproven in the real world.

He also stated something that I think MOST OF US would really appreciate..... They want to get this to market as QUICKLY as possible. And have a product that is the BEST and SAFEST they can produce, which will also be at a price that most will be able to afford.

According to Mr. Parry, going with the Parallel Hybrid is the best way of not only keeping the cost down, but also AVOIDING the inherent risk that would come with the introduction of a Serial Hybrid. Bottom line, this is what is called a "managed risk" course that they are taking.

To me, the answer he gave to the Parallel vs. Serial question made a great deal of sense. I, for one, want to be driving this thing before I'm too old to enjoy it. I don't really want to wait for them to "perfect" the serial hybrid before getting the thing on the market. Anyway, that's just my opinion on this!

Question Two: What was meant when he said they have "moved on" from the alpha" to other things?

Answer: The "alpha" did it's job. They did all the testing necessary with the alpha, and it accomplished everything that it needed to for the project. They have now gone on to the next phase. To be clear.... an "entire" alpha as you may think was never completed. They did not have an ENTIRE VEHICLE built that they were driving around. But this was never their intent in regards to the alpha. They built what was needed to be built, and received the information that they were looking for. Now they have moved on in the process.

Question Three: Why has there been perceived "black-out" of information in regards to the project? Why has there not been regular updates on the company forum?

Answer: The general answer Mr. Parry gave to this was actually what Ian had told all of us many months ago. The project has moved into a new phase where the progress day to day is rather minute and not really too "sexy" or interesting. That being said, he also mentioned that Venture Vehicle is not "free" to simply post everything and everything that they want to anymore. There are many other parties involved who have the need to operate in confidence. They may not want every last detail posted and made available in the public domain.

For those that are wondering why the "change" in specifications, there is a very simple and reasonable answer to that..... When Venture Vehicles first created the website, and then opened the forum for discussion, this entire project was in the "VISION" stage. It was a dream that Ian and Howard had, and they were simply posting a sort of wish list of specifications that they would really like to see on the vehicle they wanted to create. But, as with most dreams or visions, things get scaled back when you begin to bring them into reality.

This is what happened with the Venture Vehicle project. They have now moved from the "Vision" stage, to the IMPLEMENTATION stage where they are ACTUALLY designing and building a vehicle in the real world. This does not mean that the original specs will never reach production, but it just means that in the INITIAL release they are attempting to bypass some things simply to get a product to market.

I guess the phrase that he used a couple times really does describe this very succinctly..."Venture Vehicle want to be Leading Edge, not Bleeding Edge". That phrase has stuck in my mind, and it really makes a lot of sense to me. Why take unnecessary risks right out of the box, right? At least that's how I see it.
Mr.Parry wanted me to pass on his appreciation and thanks to all those that submitted questions.Although he was not willing to take the time to answer them all with me on this phone conversation, he did promise to put them all together in a future post at the Venture Vehicle forum. He went on to say that he may not be able to answer ALL of the questions, he will certainly try to answer most of them. He really liked the idea of a "Question & Answer" type of page, and will work toward making contributions toward that as the project proceeds.Because some have been concerned.... He stated that there has been NO POWER STRUGGLE at Venture Vehicles, and that Ian and Howard are still in charge and actively involved.

All in all, I thought the conversation with him was incredibly nice. He is actively involved in what is going on, and sees this coming to market in the previous projected time frame, although things may indeed change between now and then.

I am actually more excited about this project now more than ever, to tell you the truth. I now know that they are working to get this thing to market as quickly as possible, and not waiting to introduce all of the new technology beforehand. I have said it before, and I'll repeat it here.... I would have been happy if they would have simply taken the Carver and slapped a new body on it! I just wanted this thing in my driveway. Well, they are doing far more than that. They are getting a hybrid vehicle on the market unlike any other hybrid vehicle, and we are fortunate enough to be among those that have been witnessing history over these past 1 to 2 years.

I asked the question about whether they would be using in-wheel motors, and many other items that I know peaked the interest of many, and he said that these are definitely things that would be considered in future models. But bottom line is, they want to get the FIRST model on the roads and in our driveways first. then they will have the whereabouts to get closer to the initial "vision" that Ian and Howard had in the beginning.

All in all, not bad if you ask me!

I am one happy camper! :whoohoo:

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

In reality .... bottom Line = Price, performance, features, mileage and real important the fun factor. I am somewhat disappointed by the reality of it all but the bottom line is what matters to me. I for one can wait for the bleeding edge is to a point where I won't bleed too much. It's not like this will be my last motorcycle (autocyle or what ever).

[Hardtime11]

and sees this coming to market in the previous projected time frame,
Derwin

Can you clarify on this?

[RAN]

"Leading edge not bleeding edge?" Puleeeeeeeeze!

By the time the V-1 limps it's way into production, there will be at least 2 serial hybrids on the market: the Chevy Volt and the Fisker Karma. Oh, and don't forget the Dagne.

Meanwhile, Bill Kemp already converted a Miata (http://aztext.com/zero_carbon_car.cfm) into a serial hybrid in his garage. Too bad they didn't hire him to work on the V-1.

[Derwin]

Can you clarify on this?

HT... I guess they posted a timeframe of when the vehicle was going to be launched. He simply stated that AS OF NOW this has not changed.

Derwin

[RAN]

Would that be the 2009 timeframe? the 2010 timeframe? or the 2011 timeframe? Could someone remove Ian's gag so he can answer?

[Derwin]

Would that be the 2009 timeframe? the 2010 timeframe? or the 2011 timeframe? Could someone remove Ian's gag so he can answer?

That's a great question, RAN! The last "official" date that I heard about was around April of 2009, but I KNOW that this date cannot be correct!

By the way, I think Mr. Parry will be doing all of the communicating to us from now on. At least this is the impression I got from our conversation. He also mentioned that he may be communicating with me on occasion in order to pass on information to all of the club members.

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

VV FAQ 7/1/08

When can I get a VentureOne (V1)?
The target is to start selling the V1 in early 2010, in California. There will be a staged rollout to other areas of the country in subsequent years, based, in part, on the ability to provide retail and service infrastructure.


This was the most current projection.

[Derwin]

Thanks, AZ! I knew I was behind on my date!

One other thing I forgot to mention.... I asked the all popular question of whether this was going to be a "California Only" release, or if ANYBODY with a checkbook would be able to purchase a vehicle. Mr. Parry told me that they had NOT decided on that just yet.

Derwin

[Derwin]

I needed to CLARIFY something that I stated in my post about Ian and Howard still being "in charge". Ian and Howard are actively involved in the company, rather than in charge. This is a startup and the board in fact is in charge of the organization and drives the process.

One other thing..... I stated that "in wheel motors" would be something that they would be putting in future models. But I should have said that the company will certainly offer other products over time. I have no idea if hub motors specifically will be one of those offerings, it is simply too soon to say whether that technology will in fact be viable. The engineers will take exception if they perceive I am predicting future technology directions!

I had to make these corrections in order to make sure an accurate description of the conversation is being posted. Thanks for understanding.

Derwin

[ziggy951]

Hey, wait a minute! I didnt agree to understand anything! Stop putting words in my mouth or I'll :threadjacked: you so fast you wont be able to find your moderate button.



2thumb:up





Z


Seriously, I love all these new smileys.

[MikeB]

Hmm, interesting info Derwin, thanks for doing this.


I still want my serial hybrid, but I also want a V1. I suppose I might end up getting one of the initial models, and then upgrading after a few years when the serial hybrid models come out. I'm guessing the resale value on a first release V1 might still be pretty good, as long as production numbers are somewhat limited.

On the other hand, I agree with RAN, serial hybrids will be out in the next year, they really aren't quite bleeding edge anymore. (No to mention the diesel-electric train locomotive design, which has been standard for ages)

[Derwin]

Hmm, interesting info Derwin, thanks for doing this.

Hey, I am HONORED to be able to discuss this with a member of NGEN. It was an incredible experience, and I enjoyed every minute!


On the other hand, I agree with RAN, serial hybrids will be out in the next year, they really aren't quite bleeding edge anymore.

Well, I was just quoting Mr. Parry. He used that exact phrase a couple times during our conversation. I think the MAIN point he was trying to get across was that they just want to get this thing to market with the MOST reliable and proven technology on the market. That's pretty much it. I would be willing to bet money that a serial hybrid would be in VV's future. But that's just my opinion

Derwin

[westonlgray]

Thanks Derwin. It is good to know that they are willing to talk to us. Maybe by the time they will sell vehicles in Ohio, they will also have the serial hybrid. I would be pretty excited to drive the V1 regardless.

[MVRacing]

Derwin,
Thanks so much for taking the time and sharing what you were able to glean from the conversation.
I will be getting what ever the initial model is and hoping for future upgrades or improvements in later versions.

[Mark Tomlinson]

While I appreciate Derwin and SEP taking the time to answer these questions, my overall reaction was, "And...?"

Let me say this first, I am still a fan. And since "fan" is short for "fanatic", I consider that an accurate description.

But I'm frustrated by two things. First, the conversation is just a validation of what I already thought, Venture Vehicles has hit the point where money controls the vision rather than vision controlling the money. It's a reality of all start-ups - all business, in fact. At some point the vision of the founder is pushed aside in favor of profit. It's a really rare business where the visionaries and founders have the business acumen to keep the business alive. This is why most great ideas never see the light of day. While I'm frustrated by this, I also am reassured that NGEN Partners is pushing Venture Vehicles to abandon the questionable features to bring the original vision to market. (Remember that when Howard and Ian first saw the Carver, they imagined a high-mileage "everyman's" sports vehicle - the hub-motors and EV came later).

Second, I'm frustrated that these simple answers had to be dug out of Venture and NGEN Partners. How easy would it have been to just post these answers on the web site before the questions were asked in a phone call? And without the lawyer-speak ("moved beyond the Alpha")? Unlike my first point, I'm not cutting Venture any slack on this one. We're customers! Someday we'll be paying customers. Treat us with the respect that customers deserve, or they won't have any customers by the time they have a product.

[cobraphx]

Mark,

I agree with most of what you say here except this part:


We're customers! Someday we'll be paying customers. Treat us with the respect that customers deserve, or they won't have any customers by the time they have a product.

If the future of VV and the V1 is solely based on only selling vehicles to the few hundred active users of the forums (the current "customers"), the future is truly bleak. The only way VV will grow to the point of developing "future products" is for them to sell to a much wider audience than those of us that are active on the forms (and thus the only people that could possibly feel slighted as "customers").

All in all, I feel pretty satisfied that I was an active part of bringing the V1 to market. Now that the project is past the initial design stage I understand why I'm no longer a part of the process. They aren't going to post cost and performance information on 5 motor designs and ask us to tell them which one we prefer like they did with exterior design features.

I'm not particularly happy with the paralell hybrid approach. But if it includes a plug-in range, I'll probably buy a first edition and upgrade to the V2.0 serial hybrid sport model when it becomes available.

-Matt

[randi]

Just like Mark, I am so underwhelmed by Mr. Parry's most recent comments.

Is anyone at VV capable of communicating what the bottom line is?

"It was a dream that Ian and Howard had, and they were simply posting a sort of wish list of specifications that they would really like to see on the vehicle they wanted to create. But, as with most dreams or visions, things get scaled back when you begin to bring them into reality."

From paradigm shift to scaled back "progressive diminishment".

Wake up, everyone, we're not in Kansas anymore!

Does anyone know where in the world ianbruce is? Bound and gagged in the belly of a bottomless pit.

And where is howard levine? Chasing down politicians and hawking rides for HOV lanes.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Matt, my perception is probably skewed by the business I work in. I'm employed by the fourth largest health insurer in the US - which is an incredible number considering we only operate in four states. We got that way by being one of the few - perhaps only - insurers that treat our members with the respect they deserve. I fully believe that long term success absolutely depends on a foundation of dialog with the customer and responsiveness to their needs.

Sure, I exaggerated when I said they won't have any customers by the time the V1 gets to market. I'm upset. I want Venture to succeed. But I believe Venture is missing a critical element to building a company that will last in the highly competitive market that's emerging.

[Miracleman89]

Ok here is my take on what was said,

1.) We need to be realistic! They want to get this thing to market and that is a good thing!
2.) Ian and Howard sold their souls to bring this thing to market because they believe in it so much, as a result they are no longer in charge and we will be forced to buy a lesser vehicle. This is due to the board saying we want to start making money! (note this is not all bad!! A V1 with even half of the performance numbers will still be fun!)
3.) These things are disappointing! However, there is still a lot of hope left. This just means that after the initial release we will have to push VV to make the necessary upgrades to compete in a competitive market! Such as in wheel Hub motors!


Now, my only fear in all of this are the possible senarios of going this route:
A) The V1 sells are great and they have no incentive to make the necessary upgrades to performance.
B) The V1 doesn't sell enough because of the lack luster performance that it fails!

I hope that they have taken all this into consideration and have made the right calculated risks!

As for the "cutting edge, bleeding edge" thing goes..... That is part of what attracted me to the V1! I wanted to see someone come out with a vehicle that was on the bleeding edge! A vehicle company that was willing to take a risk to move our transportation in the right direction! I am so bored with the average and ordinary! V1 was never suppose to be ordinary, so why do they want to make it such? In-wheel motors have been proven! they have been testing them for almost 5 years!!! Why are they not on the road?

Of course this is just my opinion, I could be wrong!

[Donald1800]

I keep seeing comments by posters about future 'upgrade' to the serial hybrid/wheel motor version when available. This will NOT happen! They are entirely different and incompatible systems. It will be a sell and replace situation - NOT an update.

Donald1800

[WarpedOne]

Well, at least VV is still alive and kicking. Unfortunatel, their future product is looking less and less like what I would want to buy and drive. What advantages are there going to be with V1 as opposed to Carver One?

I have one question for Mr.Perry: Will I be able to buy a V1 glider from VV?

Glider: A complete vehicle without drivetrain (engine, transmission, electric motor, batteries, controler, ...)

[Hardtime11]

Ok here is my take on what was said,

1.) We need to be realistic! They want to get this thing to market and that is a good thing!


I think that they want to get this to market as cheap as they can. However, to meet the criteria that they have depicted/stated before they want to hold off on it. This way they can release one at the price they stated and then later on release it with the performance and comfort goals. This way they can get much more money for it. Probably half or twice again the price stated (minimum). Good marketing strategy to stick it to the consumer and let them settle for a less than ideal/promised model. People unaware or impatient will buy the lower standard vehicle and then maybe later the upgrade.

To me if the vehicle comes in not up to par (sub-standard to previous statements) as they stated the "Dagne" or other vehicles might/will have more appeal to a lot of people. Especially those with any common sense.

I am not trying to be negative but only trying to read the white transparent lines.

[Miracleman89]

I keep seeing comments by posters about future 'upgrade' to the serial hybrid/wheel motor version when available. This will NOT happen! They are entirely different and incompatible systems. It will be a sell and replace situation - NOT an update.

Donald1800


I am refering to version 2 (V2) as in the model 4 or 5 years after original release! I think it will suck to have to wait this long but this maybe the only way to get one with hub motors! As it is, it seems like they have stepped away from their all electric version and hub motors maybe an ideal setup for the all electric version! If this is the case we may see them in just a couple of years after original release! My whole thing is the V1 was not suppose to be ordinary and the current setup sure feels that way! I don't know who all these people are on the board but IMO they sure don't understand the concept of the V1! Who knows maybe we can track down a local :mad:science: and he can take out all the BS and install a set of hub motors, the electric generator and more batteries! Or like warpedone pointed out maybe we could get a glider setup and have the :mad:science: start with that!

[rogwild]

I am a BIT Confused by Steve's comment; "Answer: The "alpha" did it's job. They did all the testing necessary with the alpha, and it accomplished everything that it needed to for the project. They have now gone on to the next phase. To be clear.... an "entire" alpha as you may think was never completed. They did not have an ENTIRE VEHICLE built that they were driving around. But this was never their intent in regards to the alpha. They built what was needed to be built, and received the information that they were looking for. Now they have moved on in the process.

It was my understanding of Ian's explanation that the Sandrail Mule was to test the Drivetrain Components for function and compatibility. The ALPHA was to be a 'fully drivable' vehicle to demonstrate the Power Pod integration with the Cabin and DVC, and to obtain test data, and 'tweak' performance. The BETA was to be a 'Near Production' version that integrated things like body panels, instruments, lighting, AC, stereo and other 'creature comforts'; and get them ready for the 'Pre-production Model".

Since the ALPHA 1.1 was never 'completed' or 'driven', I don't see how it could; ""alpha" did it's job". It would seem to me that they are back to 'Square One', requiring a 'Sandrail 2.0' to demonstrate the parallel hybrid system, THEN an 'ALPHA 2.1' to do the driving and interoperability testing. That would seem to make the BETA Waaaay off in the distant future. Perhaps someone can 'enlighten' me on how Vv will; "Now they have moved on in the process.", without doing the necessary testing and evaluation of a parallel hybrid drive system for the V~1!!:confused:

I thought that the whole 'concept' of the original V~1 was to take proven, existing technology (DVC, electric drive, ICE generator) and combine them in a Revolutionary Vehicle.

[Derwin]

And where is howard levine? Chasing down politicians and hawking rides for HOV lanes.

Just so everybody knows.... Howard Levine played a VITAL role in pushing for, and getting passed into law, the new California Assembly Bill #2272. This was no small accomplishment, and it actually paved the way for the Venture Vehicles project to even be more successful than without it. This means more sales for the company, which also means that Venture Vehicles will be able to come out with second, third, and fourth generation models that have all of the high tech bells and whistles that we all would like to see.

And, speaking of bells and whistles.... Just in case some may have misunderstood what was said, this whole thing was the "dream" or "vision" of Ian and Howard. They are the ones with the foresight to bring this thing to America, and revamp it as a hybrid. They are the ones to have this vision and who actually put THEIR MONEY where their vision was. They had to purchase the rights to the Carver tilting tech for North America.

They had the vision of a vehicle that was a serial hybrid, had in wheel motors, and many other high tech things that we all love. But then reality hit. They needed INVESTORS. They have a board of directors that they have to answer to on a daily basis. It was no longer simply Ian and Howards dream exclusively anymore. Now, IF they could PERSONALLY fund this project THEMSELVES out of their own bank account, then maybe the final product would be different. But they have investors and a board to think about, and who actually "control" what is going on.

If I were an investor in Venture Vehicles, believe me, I would want to MAKE SURE that the INITIAL product produced was a success. I think this is what is going on in this case. They want to get this 3-wheeled tilting HYBRID vehicle ON THE MARKET at the CHEAPEST price possible. When all is said and done, this will still be one of the most unique vehicles on the road, and it will be a hybrid which is getting incredibly high gas mileage.

Now, do we all wish it could be an EV? Probably MOST of us do! But I would rather have this vehicle on the roads as a hybrid, than not at all. I think we can be sure that an all EV will be coming out soon after the hybrid. This would simply make good business sense in my opinion.

Being "bleeding edge" may indeed be what Ian and Howard initially wanted, but I think the reality of having investors in their "vision" changed that. Now they are on track to getting an incredibly unique vehicle to market which will change the way we get from point A to point B. This will be a vehicle that will still be a "game changer" in the way we get places, at least in terms of the FUN FACTOR. And, after all is said and done, I think the FUN FACTOR will be the MAIN selling point of this vehicle. When they sell the first 10,000 to 20,000 (or however many!) units , then I would think they will go on to creating the NEXT GENERATION of Venture One vehicles.

This post was entirely made up of MY opinion. Please do NOT infer that I got anything here from Mr. Parry. I just want to make sure you all understand this so I don't get in trouble with anyone! Then they really WILL tie me up and not let me speak anymore! :shup:

Derwin

[Derwin]

I am a BIT Confused by Steve's comment; "Answer: The "alpha" did it's job...... It was my understanding of Ian's explanation....

Well, rog, I guess this is the whole point. You and I may be "confused" by what is going on due to the fact that we do NOT know EVERYTHING that is going on! Your "understanding" of what Ian previously stated may indeed be true, but thing are FLUID when creating a new vehicle. Things indeed may have changed in the process. Then again, your "understanding" may have been wrong. I don't know.

But one thing that was made VERY clear to me in my conversation with Mr. Parry, was that they HAD ACCOMPLISHED THERE DESIRED GOALS WITH THE ALPHA. THE ALPHA COMPLETED ALL THE WORK THAT IT WAS MEANT TO ACCOMPLISH. Rog, I think this is a very clear statement on the part of Mr. Parry. The alpha gave them all they needed, and now they are moving on to the next phase of the project. That's good news, right?



I thought that the whole 'concept' of the original V~1 was to take proven, existing technology (DVC, electric drive, ICE generator) and combine them in a Revolutionary Vehicle.

Yes, roger, that WAS the "original" concept. But, as I explained, their are investors in the company that wish to get a more pragmatic vehicle on the market at a reasonable price first. Then they can go with all of the other things that we may like.

But make no mistake about it..... This vehicle WILL indeed be a REVOLUTIONARY vehicle when it hits the road. Do you know of ANY other 3-wheeled enclosed hybrid with the specs that this will have? This will be a game changer in the way we ENJOY getting from point A to point B.

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

I am with rogwild on this. I think that he is thinking they are starting to take shortcuts just to get it to market. This is actually starting to worry me a little bit. In the beginning Ian was dead set on safety and quality. He even mentioned they were going to be doing crash testing and such.

At this point the way things are starting to sound it is as if the schedule has changed and a lot of things are going to be bypassed. I mean they have totally changed their drivetrain route thus far. What else has changed?

I mean if you think about it a lot has actually been scrapped and changed. Maybe one of these days we will actually get an update instead of leak outs and the old sayings, "We will post and update soon". I mean all of the publicity thus far has made mention of serial hybrid, in wheel hub motors, etc....

When is VV actually going to update that information? Not to mention all of the other changes. The interior drawings that Ian threw in several months ago did not have the LCD set ups. They were using gauges. If they have changed to a parallel instead of a serial setup there goes a lot of space and something has to give. My guess would be that the performance just took another hit.

I will still hang around and see what happens but it is sounding more like "We would like this, but we will settle for this", or "I know I said this, but I meant this". "We want to get it to market now" and "We will possibly do as we said later and for more money".o:h"we"ll1

I do not know about the Steve Parry interview. At least there was some information but not much. To me it was pretty much a smooth over again much the same as Ian, as far as I can tell. I guess it is an art they have adapted. Some information but not actually. I think we are still out in the cold on any true information.:shivering:

[Derwin]

I am with rogwild on this. I think that he is thinking they are starting to take shortcuts just to get it to market. This is actually starting to worry me a little bit. In the beginning Ian was dead set on safety and quality. He even mentioned they were going to be doing crash testing and such.

At this point the way things are starting to sound it is as if the schedule has changed and a lot of things are going to be bypassed.

Well, let your heart not be troubled, my friend! It is not as bad as you are suggesting, in my opinion. Sure, they are now going with the parallel hybrid in their initial model. All of us may not be too pleased with that decision. But let's face reality. They may have stated that they could do a whole lot of things, and get it to us at a certain price. But when the "rubber met the road" they just could not do it. All things CHANGE from the "vision" stage, to the IMPLEMENTATION stage. Some of the things promised in the vision statement of Ian and Howard simply met the face of reality. I think we should all just accept this and move on. After all, it's still going to be one heck of a great vehicle in my opinion, and I don't think they will have any worries about selling them. I think they will "fly" off the showroom floor!


I think we are still out in the cold on any true information. :shivering:

Well, I don't feel that way. I think this company allowed us to be a part of something that will be a real blockbuster when it is released, and I for one am grateful. As far as more information being released.... Mr. Parry promised me that he will be putting together all of the questions that you submitted to me, and answering most of them over at the official company forum. So be on the look out for the next post by him over there.

Derwin

[RAN]

Technically, they could add a slot car motor to an ICE and have a parallel hybrid.

Prepare to be underwhelmed....

[Derwin]

Prepare to be underwhelmed....

I guess I just don't get it. If I seen a car at any local dealership that looked like this..... had three wheels..... tilted..... and was a hybrid that got around 100 miles per gallon.... IT WOULD BLOW MY MIND! I would buy it immediately!

When this hits the showroom floor, I definitely don't think you will hear anybody say they were "underwhelmed" by the vehicle. It's my opinion that many of us get so caught up in CONCEPT vehicles that have so many amazing things on them, that when a REAL vehicle hits the market, we feel let down. But concepts are just that....concepts. Until they are actually made and on the road, all of it is fiction (including this one!).

Venture Vehicles is putting something out that is incredibly exciting, and will change the way we enjoy driving. Is that so underwhelming?

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

Well, let your heart not be troubled, my friend!

Well, I don't feel that way. I think this company allowed us to be a part of something that will be a real blockbuster when it is released, and I for one am grateful. As far as more information being released.... Mr. Parry promised me that he will be putting together all of the questions that you submitted to me, and answering most of them over at the official company forum. So be on the look out for the next post by him over there.
Derwin

That is cool I have been following this project for about 2 years (give or take) now and been on the company site since it went up well over a year and a half ago and I feel appreciative of that. However as of late the appreciation has seriously dropped as the chill :shivering:has steadily gotten worse. I seriously doubt that everything is as cens:or:ed1 as they let on. Could it be that they are too busy doing what a lot of other companies do when they start up gath:er:2 and not much of anything else :mad:science:.

At least Steve is now talking (that is all thus far) to us. He has not been to bad yet. His posts 1st (http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=892&replies=124#post-19019) and 2nd (http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=892&page=3&replies=124#post-19453) are only 5 weeks (36 days) apart. Maybe things will be a little bit more timely(?) even though it has just been organizational information given this far. Actually, the organizational stuff was mentioned to be happening very soon but that was well over a year ago.

I am not trying to be negative just informational as to things that were promised a long time ago and are just now coming to pass (some of them).

I have lived in the snow and have probably walked in it more than anyone in this forum and can see it quite readily.

[WarpedOne]

I guess I just don't get it. If I seen a car at any local dealership that looked like this..... had three wheels..... tilted..... and was a hybrid that got around 100 miles per gallon.... IT WOULD BLOW MY MIND! I would buy it immediately!

See, you haven't mentioned price.

You first want to create something people want and let them decide if they want it enough to pay the price. If you decide how much it can cost and then design to this set price you may find that noone wants it anymore. I'm afraid this will happen.

Ferrari is not warried about price, Ford is.

[RAN]

It's not going to get 100 miles to the gallon Derwin. It's not going to have any EV range at all. It's going to require gasoline to run, and oil changes, filters, plugs, tune-ups, and all the things that a truly revolutionary vehicle wouldn't (at least a genset ICE wouldn't require them nearly as often). The performance we're left with remains to be seen as well, but I can guarantee you that it won't improve on the slipped figures already estimated.

Is that so underwhelming? Well, yeah..... it is.

[Hardtime11]

Maybe when Steve gets his footing (?) we will hear and hopefully see more. I am still hoping that this vehicle will come to pass as promised (somewhat at least). I still like the original ideas behind it.

[Derwin]

See, you haven't mentioned price.

What Mr. Parry did state very clearly to me is that one of the MAIN goals of Venture Vehicles is to get this thing to market at a price that most can afford. This will not be a "high priced" vehicle that only a select few will be able to purchase. Heck, that may indeed be one of the reasons for the changes in the original vision.


It's not going to get 100 miles to the gallon Derwin.

Is that so underwhelming? Well, yeah..... it is.

RAN, even if it only gets around 75 to 80 miles per gallon, is that so bad? I'll tell you what, even if they simply repackaged the Carver, and got it to market for only $20,000, it would fly off the showroom floors. I would LOVE to own a Carver even with the specs that it has. The Carver vehicle itself is overwhelming and exciting.

But Venture Vehicles isn't simply repackaging the Carver......they are creating an incredible hybrid using the Carver tilting technology. To me this is fantastic. Again, would it be better if they came out with something closer to the original vision? Sure. But the vehicle they are coming out with is exciting even though it does not contain the proposed specs from the original vision.

Well, that's it for me. I'm on my way to go golfing now. I'll see you guys in a few hours!

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

even if it only gets around 75 to 80 miles per gallon, is that so bad? I'll tell you what, even if they simply repackaged the Carver, and got it to market for only $20,000, it would fly off the showroom floors. I would LOVE to own a Carver even with the specs that it has. The Carver vehicle itself is overwhelming and exciting.
Derwin

I do not think it is even going to get 75-80 mpg. Maybe, I will be wrong (I hope so in this matter). The Carver, I could not handle as it is very noisy and has already been commented to be hard to talk with a passenger over the engine noise. I have a bad case of "Tinnitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus)" and cannot handle the engine noise very well at all. The Carver only gets 40 mpg on a good day. I am sorry that would not work well with me. They have already mentioned the price increase to $23,000. I am assuming and could be wrong about it but that will probably now be the price for the stripped down and low performance version that they are trying to get to market now.

[Baja_Traveler]

If it gets better than 50mpg, and is floating around $25k I'm still there....

That is unless we are in a full blown recession/depression by the time this thing comes out - then all bets are off for vehicles of any kind.

[danbucks]

Hardtime ... I am fairly certain you are wrong!
There's a reason why VV (and Dagne), chose this design (I mean: lightweight, narrow profile, aerodynamic, AND hybrid or full EV ...) - if that design can't soundly beat, say, a traditional 4-seater Prius (I think 2009 is EMPG @ 50) - it will not sell... well enough. period.
It's a vision issue. If Derwin put a poll up on this site (oops, or is it already there?), I would wager the majority here, in the face of sacrifice, would sacrifice mpg last, not first (or put another way: I would assume most would be willing to spend a little more money for that, or have performance drop a tad for that, etc.).
I think it is also clear - the only real reason to ding and harp about a parallel design, imho - that most want some sort of EV-only range (btw, a parallel design does not preclude EV-only range... just don't stomp down on the pedal or go up a steep hill).


Bottom line, their cheap price must be matched with volume. I don't see volume if the vision is not met. So they will work on it. Who knows, but lower than 75 mpg doesn't, to me, meet any new vision.

[Mike kZ]

So Derwin, did what Ian tell you parallel what Steve said? Since Ian is now out of the picture, are you going to tell us what he said? Curious minds want to know! :)

[rogwild]

My main concern is the TIMELINE, since all the time, money, and effort put into the Serial Hybrid, now seems to be 'wasted' and planning, design, procurement of components, assembly, and testing.....then building has to be 're-accomplished' for a Parallel Hybrid System. I just don't see how this latest 'major change' can allow Vv to keep to their 'estimated' TIMELINE (which they have NOT been too go at keeping so far).

[WarpedOne]

What Mr. Parry did state very clearly to me is that one of the MAIN goals of Venture Vehicles is to get this thing to market at a price that most can afford.

And they will end with a vehicle few could afford and even fewer want.
Hmm, you cannot do extraordinary things at ordinary price.

Carver One is nothing special when it comes to drivetrain, yet it costs over 50.000 USD. Yes, larger production numbers would bring this price down, but how far? Also, DVC licence is not cheap eather. Then, it is said Prius costs about twice as much as it would cost with ordinary drivetrain.

My prediction?
V1 will end up costing around 35k - 40k USD, will atain arround 60mpg, won't have any meaningful (only single digit) EV range, and compay will go bust in a year.

Guess I'm not waiting for V1 anymore. I might pull "a Martin" i.e. "If I can't buy it, I'll make one".

[Hardtime11]

My main concern is the TIMELINE,

What TimeLine? they actually use one? I am still using the multiplication factor of "x42". Steve Parry is almost on par with this and still rock solid posting of information. o:o:p:s12

[espresso_curve]

I think we should all take a chill pill. There is tons of negativity on this forum (granted some with good reason). But nothing good comes from being a cry baby. :( None of us (as far as I know du:n:n:o( ) are big money investors in VV. We have invested our interest in the V1 and all want a great vehicle in our driveways, soon. Derwin did something the majority of us would not do, proactively go looking for the answers to the questions bugging us like were is my V1, etc. I applaud Derwin for doing this. cl:ap)1 I for one plan to stay positive and will follow the road dr:ive1)(no pun intended) where ever it takes us in the quest for the V1.

Really, why stress yourself out over something you have little to no control over. If you are not happy go find another company/car that makes you happier (I am staying here).

Now if I fall into money somehow and become an investor (with capital) in VV, then maybe I will be looking at it differently.

btw: I love all the new smilies th:c:oo:l:202

[Hardtime11]

I think we should all take a chill pill. There is tons of negativity on this forum (granted some with good reason).

I am sorry but you have only been around since the latest group of changes. Others of us have been with it since the beginning of the dream. I know it may sound like a bunch of whining to you but it is just a reality check for us in noting the changes. Some of these changes were promised to not happen and have. Such as not settling for a lesser vehicle. The cutting edge is falling/failing pretty quickly as their are other upstarts. We are still 100% behind the vehicle for the most part but too many changes will change even the most tolerant of us. Especially with the other up and coming vehicles that we warned about a long time ago.

I still want a Venture Vehicle V1 but I may now have to settle for a V2-V3 to get to the original promise and only then if it has not escalated to far out of the practicality margin due to price. I mean some people look at things as to see how long before they recoup their out cash to the actual savings. Just a little realism here. We understand there are those that do not care about realism and may not actually be going to purchase one for themselves. I already have half the amount of the vehicle saved up but may end up having to go another route after figuring everything out with a little common sense.

I hope they maintain some of the fine features that they promised earlier and only time will tell.

[espresso_curve]

I agree hardtime, I have not been around as long as some and may not know the whole story. I understand some folks are getting the run around and are frustrated but I just would like to see less company bashing and more positivity (I sound like a rasta ... ya mon). I like the vehicle but if it does not give me what I want in the end I well too may decide to wait for V2 or V3 (maybe even 4 or 5). I might even get another vehicle. I am just happy to watch this process role out.

Then again maybe I am just an eternal optimist.

[Hardtime11]

We are to! I really hope it does.

[Lumberjack]

If you guys get any more positive I suspect there may be a suicide soon.... :(

I always thought VV should have copied the carver and released it with a few mods or a new power train and worked from there instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

Nothing of what has happened is out of place on any large project. Some compromise always ends up being made to get the support needed to do the work. It is not a perfect system but It is always needed. If Ian and VV had not made any concessions then they would not have any funding and there never would be a V1 ever.

VV has been far more generous and given us far more information then most companies ever give about a developing product. We should all thank Mr. parry for taking the time to even answer a few questions.

As to those who claim the customer is always right..... no:wor:thy1
My experiance is there is always one customer that needs to be dragged out and shot. There is just no satisfying some people....If you have never met a customer like that then YOU probably are that customer!

[Derwin]

Well, I just got back from my golf outing, and I am really beat! I golfed one of the worst games of my life today.... A terrrible 103! That's not just bad, that is completely horrible. Heck, I feel like selling my golf clubs and take up bowling or something! Anyway, I see you guys kept the conversation going while I was gone....


If Ian and VV had not made any concessions then they would not have any funding and there never would be a V1 ever.

VV has been far more generous and given us far more information then most companies ever give about a developing product. We should all thank Mr. parry for taking the time to even answer a few questions.

I agree with you on both counts. As I have already stated, I'm sure if Ian and Howard had the means to finance this themselves, we would see a vehicle closer to their initial vision. But they obviously didn't, and they had to give in to some of what the board and investors wanted. These kind of things are just a fact of business life.

And I, for one, am incredibly grateful for the opportunity to speak with Mr. Parry and Ian. It has been a thrill to watch the process over the past couple of years, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I'll tell you something.... When I first found out about the Carver, I wanted one! I didn't really care what the mileage was on it. I just thought the ride seemed to be entirely different from anything that I had ever seen on the road. And with gas prices as they are, the ONLY thing that would keep me from wanting one would be if the Carver only got 15 or 20 miles per gallon, and EVEN THEN I would be tempted to get one! But, alas, the price was far to high, and importing one would be way to much of a headache.

Now we have an American company who purchased the tilting tech, and who is developing a vehicle just like the Carver, except BETTER by a long shot. Is it going to be exactly what they first proposed? No. But so what? It's still going to be one of the most incredible vehicles on the road once it is released. Will I want one? You bet. And so will tens of thousands, if not millions of other people........ In my opinion.

Derwin

[Derwin]

I do not know about the Steve Parry interview. At least there was some information but not much. To me it was pretty much a smooth over again much the same as Ian, as far as I can tell. I guess it is an art they have adapted. Some information but not actually. I think we are still out in the cold on any true information.:shivering:

hardtime, I just happened to come across this quote by Ian over at the official company forum....




IanBruce (http://www.flytheroad.com/)
<small>Administrator (http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/profile.php?id=128)</small>


I've only met Ian once but my gut tells me that he won't leave the forum members out in the cold.
Damn straight. We've discussed a separate event for forum members. As we get closer to the prototype rollout, we'll get more information to you.

Posted: 2007-06-05 10:52:03 # (http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=143&page=5&replies=141#post-3522)




Seems like Ian answered your concern over 1 year ago!

Derwin

[ziggy951]

I would hate to see your score on a full 18 holes Derwin :P

r:o:f:l:2:2:1




Z

[MikeB]

I would hate to see your score on a full 18 holes Derwin :P

You do know the windmill fell over onto the giant gorilla, so the back 9 is closed for a few weeks, right?

sc:oo:t:e:r4

[Miracleman89]

I shot a 98 once! I wound up breaking my 7 iron after that game! Can you say slice? No, but I could say snap!!!! r:a:n:t:2:101

[Derwin]

C'mon now, fella's, let's get back to arguing about my conversation with Mr. Parry.

That's what this thread is all about, right? r:a:n:t:2:101 j:o"k'e)

Derwin

[gr8lawdude]

I am new to this site and don't know you guys, but I want to echo Derwin's post.

I love motorcycles, and want a fun vehicle for at least 3 seasons. An enclosed Goldwing-type vehicle is what caught my attention. The gas mileage is a bonus. I don't care what the electric-only distance is or the fuel mileage outcome, all I care about is the VV is a fun vehicle with practical applications that will hopefully get greater than my pickup truck or my Jeep Wrangler, and still be stylish and fun to drive.

All of the criticism, anger, accusation of lies I've seen in the threads notwithstanding, both the VV site and this club site have me glued and watching for progress.

The changes that occur, whether they are due to current technological realities or due to the current financial realities may result in some lessening of the specs that were envisioned, but will still make for a fun vehicle that I think will be far superior to the Aptera and other vehicles currently in development.

I still have my money on VV for the most fun vehicle for me to drive across the deserts and mountains of Idaho, as well as touring along the coast. I'm not whining, I'm pumped and excited to see and experience this in my lifetime.

Derwin and the club, and VV have my eager support. Those of you whining and complaining, go find another vehicle. It just means that I will have to wait less time in line for my VV.

[RAN]

You might want to bring a few of your friends down to buy one too, assuming they ever come to market... to make up for those of us who are a little more concerned about the costs and consequences of using fossil fuels, and who will probably pass on the V-1.

Stick around for a year... and come back to this post and see if you still feel this way then.

[Hardtime11]

hardtime, I just happened to come across this quote by Ian over at the official company forum....


Seems like Ian answered your concern over 1 year ago!

Derwin


Well, at least we have some new introductions. Let us see what happens now.:confused:

See later post?

[RAN]

Yeah, that really answered Hardtime's concerns! r:o:f:l:2:2:1

[cobraphx]

Well, I ended up finding the V1 after looking for info on buying a Carver a couple years ago now. So, the Carver goes from 0-62 in 8.2 seconds and gets according to Carver:
Fuel consumption
Urban 7.0 L/100 km (40.2 mpg)
Extra-urban 5.0 L/100 km (56.0 mpg)
Combined 5.8 L/100 km (49.0 mpg)

I don't see even the parallel hybrid V1 getting less mpg than this. It will get much higher in the city if it's still a plug-in. And with the Plug-in Electric vehicle tax credit (The provision grants all-electric vehicles or plug-in models with at least a four-kilowatt battery pack a $4,168 credit.), there is no economic reason not to have the plug-in option.

I'm as big a fan as anyone of the extended range serial hybrid with hub motors concept as anyone. But the only vehicle coming to market with hub motors (Lightning GT) is $300,000, they just aren't cheap enough to make it into a $25,000 vehicle. So, I'm of the mind that if VV can get a working hybrid V1 to market in 2010-2011, with the option for a 4kW+ battery pack I'll be in line. I'll drive it until they or someone else comes out with a good EV in the same 1+1 form factor.

-Matt

[Hardtime11]

I meant to add on to my previous post that the clock is ticking will it be another 16 months (that would be Feb 2010) as was the post you quoted?:RADAR:

I am trying to be a little optimistic here. Where is the real and actual food? Things happen and then they do not happen, people come and go such as with several of VV's partners and original ideas. :-)

I am very hungry, actually starving.:ike:

cobraphx, I am with you on it but the prices are constantly dropping much like that on new computers. What is new and expensive today will be cheap and old tomorrow.

[Derwin]

I would just remind people that this is a VENTURE VEHICLES enthusiasts site. If you no longer are a fan of Venture Vehicles, or the incredible vehicle they are working on, then I'm sure there are other greener pastures on the internet to post to.

Having said that, this site is ALSO a place to discuss ALL sorts of projects that are going on, including the Aptera, the Dagne by Revolution Motors, as well as many others. But this is primarily a Venture Vehicle enthusiasts club, plain and simple.

Back about 2 or so years ago when I began following Venture Vehicles, I was completely smitten with what they were working on. And, frankly, I simply LOVED the Carver vehicle as it existed in it's current form. What drew me to the Carver, and then to Venture Vehicles project, was NOT the fact that it would get 100mpg or that it was going to use alternative fuels or energy. These things were all BONUSES in my mind when it came to VV's project.

I have said it many times in the past, and I will repeat it here... I would purchase the Carver vehicle immediately if it were available in America at a reasonable price. IT IS THE 3-WHEEL TILTING ASPECTS OF THIS VEHICLE THAT ATTRACTED ME IN THE BEGINNING, and it is what still keeps me interested in Venture Vehicles. Now, tack on to the FUN FACTOR of tilting all of the bonus items like gas mileage and/or EV range, and you have a vehicle that is a GRAND SLAM home run!

I do realize that there are many members of this club who are "alternative energy" fanatics, and want to completely get away from using fossil fuels, but I am not one of them, and that is not the PRIMARY reason for this clubs existence. We exist as a group of people that are excited about Venture Vehicles and the project they are working on. All other conversations are secondary in regards to WHY this club exists.

I just thought I would post this little reminder to people, because it seems some are getting way too negative about Venture Vehicles, and are actually "picking" on people who want to support them.

We can always talk about every kind of new tech or green tech vehicle that comes out under the sun, but lets not forget our main reason for existing. If I were to go to a CanAm Spyder forum and begin posting nothing but negative things about it, I would be booted in a heart-beat. There just is no reason to go on to a website that is primarily about one vehicle/company, and then begin ragging on them. It's just not in good taste in my opinion.

So, lets all try to remember the old addage: "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all!". Now, there are exeptions to that, obviously, but I think you all get the drift of what I'm saying.

HT... By the way, I just posted that because you used the SAME exact terminology that Ian used in his response over a year ago. We all know, of course, that things have changed, and he indeed had to close the door on the flow of information. I just thought it was kind of funny to connect the "left out in the cold" phrase with something he stated a year ago!

Now I think it's official..... my thread was hyjacked! :threadjacked:

Derwin

[RAN]

I would just remind people that this is a VENTURE VEHICLES enthusiasts site. If you no longer are a fan of Venture Vehicles, or the incredible vehicle they are working on, then I'm sure there are other greener pastures on the internet to post to.

Having said that, this site is ALSO a place to discuss ALL sorts of projects that are going on, including the Aptera, the Dagne by Revolution Motors, as well as many others. But this is primarily a Venture Vehicle enthusiasts club, plain and simple.

Back about 2 or so years ago when I began following Venture Vehicles, I was completely smitten with what they were working on. And, frankly, I simply LOVED the Carver vehicle as it existed in it's current form. What drew me to the Carver, and then to Venture Vehicles project, was NOT the fact that it would get 100mpg or that it was going to use alternative fuels or energy. These things were all BONUSES in my mind when it came to VV's project.

I have said it many times in the past, and I will repeat it here... I would purchase the Carver vehicle immediately if it were available in America at a reasonable price. IT IS THE 3-WHEEL TILTING ASPECTS OF THIS VEHICLE THAT ATTRACTED ME IN THE BEGINNING, and it is what still keeps me interested in Venture Vehicles. Now, tack on to the FUN FACTOR of tilting all of the bonus items like gas mileage and/or EV range, and you have a vehicle that is a GRAND SLAM home run!

I do realize that there are many members of this club who are "alternative energy" fanatics, and want to completely get away from using fossil fuels, but I am not one of them, and that is not the PRIMARY reason for this clubs existence. We exist as a group of people that are excited about Venture Vehicles and the project they are working on. All other conversations are secondary in regards to WHY this club exists.

I just thought I would post this little reminder to people, because it seems some are getting way too negative about Venture Vehicles, and are actually "picking" on people who want to support them.

We can always talk about every kind of new tech or green tech vehicle that comes out under the sun, but lets not forget our main reason for existing. If I were to go to a CanAm Spyder forum and begin posting nothing but negative things about it, I would be booted in a heart-beat. There just is no reason to go on to a website that is primarily about one vehicle/company, and then begin ragging on them. It's just not in good taste in my opinion.

So, lets all try to remember the old addage: "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all!". Now, there are exeptions to that, obviously, but I think you all get the drift of what I'm saying.

HT... By the way, I just posted that because you used the SAME exact terminology that Ian used in his response over a year ago. We all know, of course, that things have changed, and he indeed had to close the door on the flow of information. I just thought it was kind of funny to connect the "left out in the cold" phrase with something he stated a year ago!

Now I think it's official..... my thread was hyjacked! :threadjacked:

Derwin

Derwin, I think if you're referring to anyone in particular here, you'd better speak plainly and name them.
Not everyone shares your views. If you plan on holding a V-1 "prayer meeting," you can surely count me out.
I responded to a newcomer who decided it was alright to "pick on" those who don't share *his* views.
If this is a Venture Vehicles ONLY site, then remove all other forums and allow no other discussions. I'll be out of here before the ink dries.
If we *are* going to discuss other vehicles here, then this is NOT "only a VV Enthusiasts site" and I will limit my posts to those forums.
How's it gonna be Derwin??

[Derwin]

Not everyone shares your views. If you plan on holding a V-1 "prayer meeting," you can surely count me out.

Your correct, and I think I stated in my previous post that not everyone shares my views, and they don't have to. As far as holding a "prayer meeting" for VV, Uh....No. But I'll be happy to pass the collection plate around for all those willing to donate to the first church of VV! j:o"k'e)


I responded to a newcomer who decided it was alright to "pick on" those who don't share *his* views.

The problem with that, RAN, is that this is a Venture Vehicle enthusiasts club. People that join and express excitement and support of the company are to be welcome with open arms.


If this is a Venture Vehicles ONLY site, then remove all other forums and allow no other discussions. I'll be out of here before the ink dries.

Hold on to your horsies there, RAN! Did you even read the entire content of my last post? I was VERY careful to point out that club members are free to discuss ALL forms of alternative energy vehicles, and even other things that are related. Didn't you read that? What I said was that the "PRIMARY" reason for this clubs existence is Venture Vehicles. Primary. This means that there are MANY other reasons for us to exist as well. This is the reason that we did indeed create forums for OTHER vehicles and technologies. I think it is obvious that they exist for the purpose of discussion, right? I really don't get the objection here.


If we *are* going to discuss other vehicles here, then this is NOT "only a VV Enthusiasts site" and I will limit my posts to those forums.
How's it gonna be Derwin??

How's it gonna be? The same as it has been for the entire past year. I guess I must be a complete idiot, but I don't understand the objection and/or question. And, by the way, you are far too valuable of a member to leave us. And there is no reason for it. I think there is just a simple misunderstanding going on here.

Derwin

[Derwin]

I am new to this site and don't know you guys...
Derwin and the club, and VV have my eager support..

wel;co;m;e101))
I am so happy you decided to join our little group of Venture Vehicle enthusiasts. And don't worry about not knowing any of us. If you stick around, that will change very fast!

Feel free to browse around and check the other forums. And, if you have any questions, feel free to contact me or another admin/mod.

Thank you for your support, and, again.. Welcome to the club!

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

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font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> I don't think that Oil and Oil products or petrochemicals are just going to go away ... in fact certain things will probably take centuries to replace if at all. But if we can find and use other means of power. If we can shortcut what took mother nature millions of years to produce through scientific effort we don't have to rely on fossil fuels. Fuel, Oil, Petrochemicals can be produced by other means.

Are we assuming that Batteries are the only way to solve the current problem as far as transportation is concerned? Batteries have their own inherent environmental problems and some of their components can cause the people holding us hostage to change to someone else. As an example how much lithium (one of the components that is seen as a way to make a better battery) is produced by the US? Why do you think China is so interested in Tibet? One of the biggest lithium producers in the world. What or who is set up to recycle these myriad of batteries and what are the cases made of? If the answer is plastics ... more petrochemicals. Lots of questions and a lot of solutions need to come into place. The world isn't as simple as we would like to believe.

It will take and combined effort of Hydrogen, solar, bio-fuels, batteries (of various types) and tons of other substitutions to solve the problems that are caused by a fossil fuel tied economy.

We don't even know what kind of system Vv is going to use. Even if the V1 is a parallel hybrid it may be flex fuel, diesel or other type of ICE. And it is not like the next vehicle most people will buy will be the last one they buy. As technology and PROVEN track record ( just because someone built one somewhere and it ran doesn't prove squat) with years of proven usage under its belt, along with proper costs come into play who knows what the V2 V3 etc will be able to do. And VV doesn't have to be the only one in existence .... there is plenty of room for a lot of competition..... I don't see anyone buying or driving just one brand /style motorcycle or car .... do you?

[ziggy951]

If they made it a serial hybrid with a small diesel, probably flex fuel or Ethanol too, I would be off the petrol grid with my V1 within a month of buying it. That would literally seal the deal for me, regardless of most of the performance specs, which are always modifyable...hey I made a Bushism!




Z

[NortonF1]

Hi You guys,

beeing a troubled Carver One owner I would like to comment on some issues.

My Carver One is just coming back together after it had rolled over on April 28th this year making it a (financally) total loss.

It took about 3 months until I got the money from the insurance company and could start to have it rebuilt.

As this forum is for enthusiasts for the V1 I don´t want to say too many bad things but just that much that I am still waiting for parts....

I have to comment also on the fuel figures of the Carver One, as it uses the tiny turbocharged engine of the Daihatsu Copen it pretty much also equals the same thurst, so practically it consumes between 7,5-9 l/100 km (appr. 32-38 MpG).

And I hope I wont frustrate the ones who still think that VV will be able to build a "better" Carver One an sell it cheaper, anybody curious on the latest pricetag?

Have a look:

http://www.carver-worldwide.com/Dealer_FO/Dealer_Pricing.asp?D_ID=17&L_ID=4&S_ID=54&nc=1

I still think the tilting DVC vehicle is a fantastic thing and I hope the best for the Venture One!

Regards from Germany

Hans

[westonlgray]

What caused the rollover? Were you hurt?

Do you normally drive it pretty hard, or do you take it easy to try and get good fuel mileage?

[Derwin]

I wasn't going to be posting for a while, but thought I would like to respond....

If you want to see the ROLLOVER with the carver that NortonF1 is talking about, go to this thread....

http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=488

You will see photos of his Carver after the wreck, and you can join in the discussion about that over there. Hope that helps!

Thanks.

Derwin

[longspeer]

Thankyou Darwin. This gives me new hope to this project. I only wish if they can't give there site updates they could do it through here more often. Thanks again

[ziggy951]

Holly cens:or:ed1! $59k Euros! Thats insanity.


On a side note I totally understand why the V1 is taking so dogone long. They are probably reinventing most of it from the ground up and probably attempting to use, hopefully, off the shelf parts for anything they can. It really does make a whole lot more sense now. All they had to start off with was a general shape, tilting technology, and the 1-2 wheel configuration. There isnt any other way to get the cost down.




Z

[Mark Tomlinson]

Holly cens:or:ed1! $59k Euros! Thats insanity.

On a side note I totally understand why the V1 is taking so dogone long. They are probably reinventing most of it from the ground up and probably attempting to use, hopefully, off the shelf parts for anything they can. It really does make a whole lot more sense now. All they had to start off with was a general shape, tilting technology, and the 1-2 wheel configuration. There isnt any other way to get the cost down.

Z
I agree, sort of. Like I said - or alluded to - above, I think the delays came early with what we call in Systems scope creep. The original concept was to build a high-mileage, low(er) cost Carver that appealed to a broad American market. The fact that it can't be an ICE came with the contract with Carver, and that lead to a lot of cool, but impractical drive train stuff. I think NGEN Partners is getting them back on track. So rather than seeing further delays, I think development will speed up once we get over the hump.

[ziggy951]

I agree, sort of. Like I said - or alluded to - above, I think the delays came early with what we call in Systems scope creep. T

Its funny, I am in a project management class right now so it is all starting to make a lot more sense.




Z

[Mike kZ]

So Derwin, did what Ian tell you parallel what Steve said? Since Ian is now out of the picture, are you going to tell us what he said? Curious minds want to know! :)

Derwin, I don't think you saw my post, can you comment?

[Derwin]

Mike,

I guess you could say that, I don't know...

The main emphasis now being on "going beyond the alpha" seems to match. But, honestly, Ian didn't give me any real details about anything. Our conversation was very short, and nowhere near as long as the one I had with Mr. Parry.

Derwin

[denisg]

Derwin
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a VV fan because of the carver and it's fun factor, because it tilts. Everything else is just a bonus. The only reason I'm behind alterative fuels is to stop sending 700 billion dollars to the middle eastern coutries that hate our guts.I for one do not believe that the burning of fossil fuels causes goble warming.In other words goble warming is BS.

[Derwin]

Thanks for the support, denisg, I really appreciate it!

I just read an article in regards to "global warming", and it pointed out some incredibly interesting things about it. I really do NOT want to get into a discussion about this, though. It's really not the purpose of this club, and a LARGE part of our membership base contain those that do in fact believe in man-made global warming. I don't want to offend them.

But, needless to say, I agree with you. I simply LOVE the Carver vehicle, and I HATE sending billions of dollars overseas to countries that don't like us very much. I would LOVE it if we could come up with a vehicle that could be powered 100% by other means than fossil fuels, but I just don't think we are there yet. Venture Vehicles is attempting to make something far better than the Carver, and I'm happy to be sitting here on the sidelines watching it happen.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Thanks for the support, denisg, I really appreciate it!

I just read an article in regards to "global warming", and it pointed out some incredibly interesting things about it. I really do NOT want to get into a discussion about this, though. It's really not the purpose of this club, and a LARGE part of our membership base contain those that do in fact believe in man-made global warming. I don't want to offend them.

But, needless to say, I agree with you. I simply LOVE the Carver vehicle, and I HATE sending billions of dollars overseas to countries that don't like us very much. I would LOVE it if we could come up with a vehicle that could be powered 100% by other means than fossil fuels, but I just don't think we are there yet. Venture Vehicles is attempting to make something far better than the Carver, and I'm happy to be sitting here on the sidelines watching it happen.

Derwin

Well Big D,

I disagree with you on this! I think we have the technology! If every single Automaker switched to all electric tomorrow, cost would be extremely hard to gauge because of supply and demand, but if done right and distribution was spread out properly price would be realistic and the vehicles would be what most want! However, most automakers are to scared to make this leap because they don't feel we the consumers will buy new tech that hasn't had a whole lot of real public testing! We need to be leaders in the fight to reduce the effects of global warming. Instead we have companies that are going bankrupt because they are not offering what the people want due to fear! We as tax payers are paying for companies that are selling crap and not producing items the consumers want! I was always told if a company doesn't listen to their buyers they will go bankrupt! I don't want to see all those people lose their jobs but we shouldn't have to pay for garbage!

This is JMO I could be wrong!

[Derwin]

MM89,

I would LOVE to be wrong about this, believe me! But I do not see the BATTERY TECHNOLOGY existing today where we can replace fossil fuels 100% in our vehicles. Even if ALL of the auto companies had a "come to Jesus" moment, and decided to dedicate all future models to being EV, the technology just is not there.

If I am wrong about this, please give me some REAL examples of REAL battery technology that can do the SAME job, and replace, fossil fuels. As I said, I would love to be wrong on this. But maybe we should move this discussion to an appropriate forum.

Derwin

[MikeB]

I would LOVE to be wrong about this, believe me! But I do not see the BATTERY TECHNOLOGY existing today where we can replace fossil fuels 100% in our vehicles. Even if ALL of the auto companies had a "come to Jesus" moment, and decided to dedicate all future models to being EV, the technology just is not there.

Derwin, the reason that so many people are pushing for PHEVs is that they can't replace 100% of our fossil fuel use, but they can very quickly replace something around 30-50%. And even a 15% reduction in total oil use would make us completely independent of middle eastern oil (though our oil price wouldn't actually change, since it's a global market).

The battery technology does exist today, and I drove it to work again this morning. I'm probably going to do 100% of my driving this week using just those batteries, not starting a gas engine until the weekend arrives. Sure, those batteries are contained within a somewhat smallish scooter, but they would work just fine in a larger vehicle like the V1.

[Derwin]

Mike, what you drove to work was an electric scooter that cannot get over a certain speed, and cannot go long distances. We all know that there are electric scooters and other vehicles out there, but what I said was that the battery technology does not exist that will do the SAME thing that a normal fueled vehicle can do.

What I mean by this is very simple.... There is nothing out there that can go 300 to 500 miles, and then simply pull over and take 5 minutes to refuel, and then get another 300 to 500 miles..... and so on and so on....indefinitely. The battery power simply does not exist to do this.

The battery tech that exists today has a very limited distance that you can go with it, and takes a long time to charge once the power is depleted.

If you can show me the battery technology that will provide me the same ability with a vehicle that fossil fuel provides, then please tell me about it. But, like I said, I don't think it exists, unfortunately.

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

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mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> I don't think that Oil and Oil products or petrochemicals are just going to go away ... in fact certain things will probably take centuries to replace if at all. But if we can find and use other means of power. If we can shortcut what took mother nature millions of years to produce through scientific effort we don't have to rely on fossil fuels. Fuel, Oil, Petrochemicals can be produced by other means.

Are we assuming that Batteries are the only way to solve the current problem as far as transportation is concerned? Batteries have their own inherent environmental problems and some of their components can cause the people holding us hostage to change to someone else. As an example how much lithium (one of the components that is seen as a way to make a better battery) is produced by the US? Why do you think China is so interested in Tibet? One of the biggest lithium producers in the world. What or who is set up to recycle these myriad of batteries and what are the cases made of? If the answer is plastics ... more petrochemicals. Lots of questions and a lot of solutions need to come into place. The world isn't as simple as we would like to believe.

It will take and combined effort of Hydrogen, solar, bio-fuels, batteries (of various types) and tons of other substitutions to solve the problems that are caused by a fossil fuel tied economy.

We don't even know what kind of system Vv is going to use. Even if the V1 is a parallel hybrid it may be flex fuel, diesel or other type of ICE. And it is not like the next vehicle most people will buy will be the last one they buy. As technology and PROVEN track record ( just because someone built one somewhere and it ran doesn't prove squat) with years of proven usage under its belt, along with proper costs come into play who knows what the V2 V3 etc will be able to do. And VV doesn't have to be the only one in existence .... there is plenty of room for a lot of competition..... I don't see anyone buying or driving just one brand /style motorcycle or car .... do you?

This kind of got overlooked but is my view of the problem; :)

[Mark Tomlinson]

Maybe we should merge these last few comments with one of our other threads on Global Warming down in Other Topics?

For your reference, Scot, as you can see there are many views on why "fuel efficiency" is important to us. I'm a tree-hugger, myself. But when asked, I defer back to national security, national debt, gas prices, and the good old 'pollution' discussion because few people disagree that expelling toxic gasses is a bad idea.

Venture's marketplace seems to be dominated by folks who want a really cool vehicle that doesn't use lots of expensive gasoline. We're not all just "car guys", nor are we all environmentalists. But we all smile at the thought of drawing a crowd at the gas station - where we stopped for snacks.

[Derwin]

Do we have a "global warming" thread in existence already? If we do, then lets just move this discussion over there.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

I am sorry did I just hijack the thread????

[Lumberjack]

Unfortunately there simply is no source of power as rich and readily usable as oil.
Hydrogen is not an energy source. It is simply a transfer medium.
Electric is not a source. It is also a transfer medium.
Natural gas is a good source but is not nearly as dense as oil.

Ok get yer hands in the air, this threads been jacked.....

[Mark Tomlinson]

Are you a lumberjack or a threadjack?

Seriously, though, this gets back to Derwin's phone call with SEM. With today's technology, having a gas engine drive the wheels is about the only reasonable approach Venture can take without wandering off into weird-science. I might disagree with you on some of the finer points of your comment, but I agree on the fundementals. If Venture wants to build a vehicle today, a gasoline powered parallel hybrid is about the only option they have.

(For those who haven't read every single thread since this forum was created, Venture can not build a gas-only vehicle under contractual obligation to Carver).

[Lumberjack]

:} hehe

VV very much needs to build a parallel electric drive train and get the show moving again.

[ziggy951]

Ok so...

V1 can NOT build a gasoline/ICE powered only version of the Carver.

V1 shouldnt, imo, build a parallel version of the Carver.


So that leaves us with an electric drive series hybrid. Power it with a honda lawnmower engine, the smallest diesel ice in the world, a friggen miniature ice from a remote controlled car. Just get the damn thing in my driveway!

I assume the engineers are going through the same stuff as I am. "Hey there are some easy fixes but reliability, cost, and durability are a concern." "Just throw a damn Warp9 electric motor in the rear somewhere, we can work out the details later." (for reference www.electricvehiclesusa.com look for the 72-144 volt medium vehicle kit...Shabang!) I get it that this wouldnt work because of the cost (more than 1/4 of the original $20k price tag) but there has got to be something available. I am hoping they are just working to get everything to fit and will surprise us with a March 2009 roll-out. :)






Z

[WarpedOne]

I get it that this wouldnt work because of the cost (more than 1/4 of the original $20k price tag

You think parallel hybrid drivetrain will cost less than 6.000 USD? And offer over 100mpg? And atain over 100mph?

None of that. It will cost over 16.000 USD, won't get 100mpg and won't get to 100 mph.

VV is trapped into "new tech at budget price" mentality. It won't work, it never had.

I'd love to get an V1 glider though. For additional 15.000 USD it could be made into full EV with at least 100mile range, 150.000 miles battery lifetime and some 80mph top speed. Enough for me.

[danbucks]

Although I agree with WarpedOne on every point in spirit, I don't on specifics.
While it is true that any tech company, any market, any product, should first seriously consider the higher end of an emerging market, not go budget first ... it's not always the case.
On cost: a study I posted on ftr and now lost also showed that - series, parallel, gas guzzler ... it matters not: going from [say] a motorcycle to a car has an inherent, expensive cost.
One can argue over battery cost for sure, but even that's just one variable. To talk about specifics on a specific part or design requires ... well, detailed knowledge none of us have.

Along came Tata motors and somehow broke through that inherent cost, by a mile... well, this is a machine without anything except engine (no A/C, no radio, etc.), slim (and I mean slim) metal, and ... a model some motorcycles follow, and what I hope VV will consider:
final assembly is done by independent dealers (e.g. like motorcycle fairings are added after the fact) - one step towards: a kit straight to the buyer.

There is a downside, of course: when I bought my first motorcycle, I heard a strange rattling. I brought it back to the dealer ... the entire fairing had 0 bolts screwed in. 0. It was literally hanging on by a plastic lip..

[ziggy951]

Ummm, I meant the specific kit I referred to with a link. When did I say anything about a parallel system? I am an avid supporter of series. And no I dont think a parallel system will work for the price point either. Regardless of the other flaws I have problems with in a parallel system.

The full electric drive system that I refrenced is for a medium sized vehicle and costs, around, $6000 usd and it is a complete kit priced for the retail market. If you could get the rest of the system together (battery/ultracap, and engine) for $4000 or so, then the rest of the vehicle for $10000 it could be done.




Z

[WarpedOne]

The hard truth is 20.000 USD is not enough for this kind of vehicle.
At least not enough for one "done right", one you and I would like to buy and drive as a daily driver.

Ziggy, sorry, it's just hard watching how dreams are being teared appart again.

[ziggy951]

Honestly it depends on the solutions available. Most likely though? I agree with you. For a profitable and growth oriented company $20,000 USD is a bit low even from my very optimistic and guessed prices.

I know manufacturing can bring the cost down. I know buying in bulk (or a contract for a certain amount of bulk spread out over a year) can bring down overall costs. I know that as newer tech ages the costs will decrease (hopefully). All of this combined with all of the solutions I can think of basically leads me to the conclusion that $20k is what I could spend to build my own...not what a company will need to charge to stay in business. At $20 it may be possible if you could do all the work yourself, but then again you wouldnt have a vehicle like the V1 is invisioned as being.

Take my example above and use it for a series hybrid:
Electric drive and control system kit $3-6000(More than a few choices here)
Compact Diesel Engine $2-4000(Kohler makes them now)
Frame $2-3k (welded roll cage)
You only have $10-13k left for everything else from the glass to the wheels to the headlights to the nuts and bolts. Its just not enough for a production vehicle imo, but then again those are retail prices. I think the biggest thing is that we dont really know what will come out of the doors when its ready. If we did, rather than just speculation, we would probably have a more concrete idea of what is possible price wise.

I guess if they skimped a bit on things and really just released a stripped down raw version that was fully enclosed, got either good speed/performance or got good mpg(70+) but didnt have stuff like airbags and a radio it may be possible but it would really be a basic vehicle. Hey, some of us may actually like that over some kind of niche luxury trike.

So I guess technically I do think it could be done for $25-30k and I would still be interested in that price point but they would really have to deliver. Anything over $28k really is a bit much for me but if I could literally be off the grid (going to grow my own biofuels by 2010) then I would probably do it.

Doing everything that they wanted to or eluded to in the past does seem a bit impossible but who knows. All we have is conjecture and time.




Z

[drew.arredondo]

I am sure this is a stupid question, but with the change from serial to parallel, does that mean there will need to be a transmission now?

BTW, this is my first post, so I hope I haven't broken any rules...o:o:p:s12

[Miracleman89]

Drew,
There has been a need for a transmission since they announced the drop of in-wheel motors.

[drew.arredondo]

Bummer, I was hoping there would be no shifting. I am sure I am in the minority on this, but oh well. I guess I could always hope for some kind of automatic transmission but that probably won't happen.

I have actually wanted to post this question for a while but didn't really feel like getting blasted for being an idiot. Hopefully the new forum will allow us less technical people to become more educated.

[JoeU]

There are no dumb questions only tactless people!

[MVRacing]

drew,
Welcome!! Please feel free to ask any question. You may want to use the search features ... many answers there.

[Derwin]

I have actually wanted to post this question for a while but didn't really feel like getting blasted for being an idiot. Hopefully the new forum will allow us less technical people to become more educated.


drew,

I want to welcome you to the club. wel;co;m;e101)) Thanks so much for joining our little group of enthusiasts.

One thing that I want to make sure you, along with ALL other members, know, is that you have NOTHING to fear by posting to this forum. We are a group of people that are interested in this proposed vehicle, and want to share our excitement, and sometimes knowledge, with other people.

As the old saying goes...."The ONLY question that is stupid is the one that is not asked". Don't ever be afraid to ask questions here. Our members seems to be very knowledgeable, as well as polite. And when the rare person comes along that is not, we will take care of it swiftly.

Again, Welcome to the club.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Bummer, I was hoping there would be no shifting. I am sure I am in the minority on this, but oh well. I guess I could always hope for some kind of automatic transmission but that probably won't happen.

I have actually wanted to post this question for a while but didn't really feel like getting blasted for being an idiot. Hopefully the new forum will allow us less technical people to become more educated.


Hey drew,
It is my understanding that it will in fact be an automatic transmission! They want to give VV all, of the creature comforts most drivers have become accustom to. (IE. radio, ac, A/T, Power windows, etc.)

[AZEqualizer]

As far as a transmission is concerned ... Yes the V1 will have a high probability need one. I know that Ian has always taken the direction in the past and as far as we know it hasn't changed that the vehicle will be an automatic transmission. Now I know this all could change but I did see a very nice CVT transmission in one of the builds which could be applied even in a parallel hybrid. And a constant variable ratio transmission is usually a automatic.

But for the definitive answer we will have to wait until Vv has completed their power train evaluation. In the mean time it certainly wouldn't hurt to state your wishes and that you hope there is a least an option for an automatic transmission.