Bio-Diesel

[AZEqualizer]

With the BioBox, those affiliated with waste, recycling and the restaurant industry finally have a way to make biodiesel.Able to be located at or near the source of waste, the BioBox is the most efficient, functional mobile biodiesel processing unit made in America. Pacific Natural Energy is the only company offering a total turn-key solution that comes installed in cargo containers for the storage of methanol, waste vegetable oil and refined biodiesel.
The BioBox (http://domesticfuel.com/?p=3293)

[RAN]

I think it's a great idea. It's a fact that if we were all driving clean diesels running on B50-B100, the air would be cleaner and we'd be importing and using far less oil.

It's a shame there aren't more cars available to put biodiesel in. If you look at the carmakers' US sites right now, Mercedes-Benz is the only one where you'll find even a mention of a diesel-engined car to buy. Neither VW nor BMW, who are both supposed to be bringing diesels to America in 2008, say one word about them on their sites. Mazda, who sells some terrific diesel engines in other parts of the world, has said they have no plans to sell them here. And it'll be at least 2009 or later before we have a real choice of diesel models (and that's only if people really jump on buying them).

Sorry.... I guess things just aren't happening fast enough for me :)

[AZEqualizer]

Yep... new Diesel emission standards and slow on the uptake... Make for limited choice until 2009+.
Rumors that the car companies are spreading is that the demand for diesels in the US is too small...

and then they jack on a premium $$ 2-4K for an engine that is simpler to produce over the gas models. But here is another rub ... some of the new ones have uria injection where you have to fill up a urea tank... new ways to get more money from you or keep you away. Maybe we could recycle Bar Waste for Clean Diesel.

[RAN]

Personally, I'm waiting to see the Venture 1, the Velozzi, and the Fisker hybrids hit the market. The Tesla, while impressive, is simply not practical (even for someone who can handle a 2-seater as their only car) until the charging times come way down (and until there are more places to charge it). From these cars will come more practical and less expensive models that will have wider appeal.

I wanna see all the big automakers, and all the big oil companies whine and moan when they're no longer needed :p

Velozzi: http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1277

Fisker:http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/31/detroit-2008-preview-fisker-hybrid-revealed/

[AZEqualizer]

100k vehicle do little to scare anyone other than those wanting to buy a vehicle:rolleyes:

[RAN]

I disagree AZ. If the people that can afford it buy these cars instead of gas-guzzling Mercedes, Porsches, Audis, etc, it accomplishes 2 important things: a) it gets good-looking, high performance, green cars out on the roads where people with smaller wallets can see, learn about and want them, and b) it helps pay for the expense in R & D so that future models can be developed to sell in higher volume at lower prices.

As it stands right now, the Venture (and maybe the Aptera) is the only vehicle that will offer plug-in hybrid technology w/high performance at a reasonable price, but, being a 3-wheeler, it'll never replace the VW Beetle as a 21st century "people's car". While I think that VV can certainly sell all the models they expect to produce for the next few years, I know lots of people that would never consider owning one no matter how impressive it turns out to be.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Boy, I agree and disagree with both of you. You're right that no one's going to change the world until they create a $25k five person sedan that gets over 100mpg (or equivalent). But that just aint happening. No one, not Tesla, Miles, ZENN, Zap, Fisker, THINK, GM, Toyota, Honda, Aptera, or Venture Vehicles has got anything close to that in the showrooms (Toyota is the closest). There's technical, business, and political reasons - but reasons nonetheless.

I think Tesla and Venture are taking the best routes to getting there. Instead of building a vehicle that they can market on clean-tech or green-tech, they are building vehicles that people want for the sheer joy of owning one. It's the old "eating an elephant" scenario; don't try to swallow the whole damn thing at once.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Biodiesel is no panacea. In our rush to bring biodiesel to market, we've diverted food crops and driven up the price of corn in Mexico and beer in Germany. We've encouraged the planting of weeds in Africa and the Northwest US, possibly upsetting the ecosystems. And we've started to create new oil cartels in countries that deforest the rain forest to plant palm trees. All for an incremental decrease in green house gases.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a proponent of biodiesel. I think it will have a strong position in the "world of tomorrow". What I'm not a big proponent of is hyperbole and instant gratification. I'm having big issues with Willey Nelson and Bio-Willey right now. Instead of promoting the use of biodiesel at this time, I feel we should be promoting the development of responsible biodiesel from algae and other sources.

[RAN]

If the government and the oil companies are running the show, don't expect anything "responsible" anytime soon!

Just to nitpick for a second, I think corn is used to make ethanol, not biodiesel. It doesn't change the validity of your argument however. :)

Producing biodlesel from algae has been approached from two angles; creating huge algae farms in the desert regions where nothing else grows, and setting them up offshore in the ocean where they don't take up any real estate. The only problem I see with replacing a gasoline economy with a biodiesel one is the time/expense of building the infrastructure for it. Like I said in another thread, if this had all started back in 2000 or the late 90's, it would have been a great idea. As it stands now, we're many years away from having biodiesel produced responsibly, and several years away from having enough diesel-engined cars in the US to matter. I really believe that series hybrids, that can offer good performance and 100+mpg, are going to remove the need for biodiesel on that scale, and that battery technology will improve by that time to start making all-electric cars viable. If the current automakers don't want to play ball, there will be new ones to take their place (which is why it's taking so long to get these vehicles to market). In my lifetime, I've seen the demise of Nash, Studebaker, and American Motors... and how many more to come?

[Mark Tomlinson]

Just to nitpick for a second, I think corn is used to make ethanol, not biodiesel. It doesn't change the validity of your argument however. :)

It was late. I was tired.

[Derwin]

Hey, fella's, what about a poor smuck like me who wants to pull my big boat around on fishing trips? These little cars will NEVER replace my SUV! Like I said in a previous post in another forum......When they come out with a car that has ALL of the capabilities that my SUV has, then SIGN ME UP. I will be the first to purchase it and get rid of my gas hog. But, this time has not arrived yet.

I LOVE the Venture 1 because it looks like it is going to be a fun little car. But it's not going to pull my boat. I have a new 4-door 2007 Jeep Unlimited that can pull my boat and do a lot of other things. I really LOVE this vehicle. But I will also do my part to help the environment by purchasing the V1 for my daily commutes. In a way, this will offset my Jeep gas hog! :D

[AZEqualizer]

Best thing for you would be a low emission Diesel truck. And Better yet a low Emission Bio-Diesel Truck.... (SUV may be substituted for the word truck)

Now of course is the problem of finding one.

My plans are for two V1's one for me and one for my wife, my boy usually likes to ride with me ... a two way com system to talk to my wife's vehicle.... And a clean Diesel (without the urea injection - thank you, I don't want to have more things to pore into the vehicle) vehicle for when I have to carry or haul a lot.
I also plan on it sitting a lot so ... unfortunately I will have to invest in a diesel oil stabilizer so the Diesel Oil doesn't go weird.

I think they will eventually have some Fuel Cell based SUV/ Trucks out there that can haul since a larger vehicle is more ideal to hauling the Hydrogen gas. But that may be a little longer out.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Yer jus' the kinda guy that needs biodiesel. Both your jeep and the boat should run on the stuff.

[WattGas?]

Mark Tomlinson: You're right that no one's going to change the world until they create a $25k five person sedan that gets over 100mpg I always wonder how many of these "must have" 5-person sedans ever get used to capacity? What is the average passenger count per trip over the lifetime of the vehicle? 1.003?

I currently drive sports coup that gets 35 MPG, and I'm still ashamed of how wasteful it is -- it's total overkill for 99.9% my use. But I could drive the V1 with a clear conscience... (And actually afford to buy one. ;))

[AZEqualizer]

According to Menlo Park, California-based SRI Consulting in this article on Green Car Advisor: (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/10/us-will-have-largest-biodiesel-market-by-2012-respected-research-group-says.html)
The United States is positioned to become the single largest biodiesel market with 19 percent of consumption by 2012, according to a report released Tuesday. The industry grew 50 percent from 2002-2007 -- the highest growth in the chemical industry -- and is poised to grow at 30 percent between 2007 and 2012.

It will be followed by Germany and France. New and large markets for biodiesel are expected to emerge in China and India, since the governments of both countries have announced major biodiesel initiatives.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/Biodiesel2007.jpg

[RAN]

As much as I want to see us move away from ICEs, both diesel and gas, for most of our personal transportation, it also irks me that most major automakers have terrific diesel engines that we can't get here in the US.

With biodiesel grown from algae to fuel them, it would certainly help curb our dependence on oil in the short term.

[Mark Tomlinson]

I'm irked about that as well, RAN. But I keep in mind that trucks, trains, buses, and earth moving and construction equipment all use diesel as well. There won't be enough biodiesel to go around for everyone - even in 2012. So let's start using it where we can now. In fact, I'd rather see cars go electric and leave the biodiesel for the garbage trucks and school buses.

[RAN]

I'm irked about that as well, RAN. But I keep in mind that trucks, trains, buses, and earth moving and construction equipment all use diesel as well. There won't be enough biodiesel to go around for everyone - even in 2012. So let's start using it where we can now.

Can't argue with that.


In fact, I'd rather see cars go electric and leave the biodiesel for the garbage trucks and school buses.

Works for me... just save enough biodiesel for Derwin's SUV (and boat!) 2thumb:up

[ziggy951]

Algae based Ethanol or Biodiesel 2thumb:up They are cost effective NOW and with better and faster growing strains they will be even better. Running 35 psi on pure ethanol straight from the pump just makes me smile.





Z

[ziggy951]

AZE....I wonder what that graph would look like if it showed the % of each country's use of biodiesel versus petrol. I bet Brazil would be higher. Just curious if you've got that info handy.





Z

[westonlgray]

Ziggy, are they really cost effective? I haven't heard any talk about them still be profitable without a government subsidy... I hope we get to that point some day, but I just haven't heard anyone say they can produce bio-D, but especially ethanol for less than the energy cost of a gallon of diesel or gasoline respectively...

[danbucks]

algae based bio-Diesel should certainly achieve that, with margin to spare.
There are companies (e.g. Vertigro) growing algae vertically (unlike the joke of corn, little land-area issue, and solving the light-starved problem for algae on the bottom), a few looking to growing it in the ocean (no land-area issue), and a few generically modifying algae to produce byproduct which is virtually diesel (little to no refinement required), or, at worst, dramatically increasing the oil byproduct.

[ziggy951]

Yes. The key here is that when using the term biofuels you need to include the word ALGAE. This is the plant that allows for fast, cheap, relatively efficient, usable, and profitable production. Virtually none of the others like Corn, soy, maybe sugar as I havent looked into that as much, come even close. I am involved with a preliminary study, the issues of which I wont bore you with. But what we have found so far just from second hand data and very small scale testing of our own, is that the cost to produce algae based fuels (price between diesel, pure ethanol, and jet fuel are different) not counting the costs of transport to and from the facility to the fueling station, is about sixty...thats $0.60 USD per gallon. You can replace the other fuels with this or blend it into the current fuels. The growth of the algae can be increased significantly if the production plant is located near enough to a CO2 producing facility to harness, then use it as an input. If you can get the co2 cheap enough that $0.60 drops a bit lower because of decreased production time.

So...with the subsidies the cost at the pump would be next to nill. Without them it is quite a cheap source of fuel and could be quite a profitible business. TO reiterate...the subsidies would NOT be needed for algae based fuels and they would be cheaper at the pump AND profitible for the producers, AND are rapid renewables, AND do not require 200 acres of farm land to produce, AND require far less fuel (some estimates are as low as a few 10-20kw wind turbines) to actually produce them. Quite honestly it is the savior of our fuel based economy if the ass hats in Congrass would get their cllective ignorance out of eachother's derier and think about what is actually good for THIS country. And people wonder why I get so pissed when talks head towards politics. None of them are a 1/10 as smart as the collective of a forum as small as this one, yet they are the ones that have the power. Its........bang:h:1......p:ss:dY((......=n: whew, almost blew a gasket there. Ok Im off he soap box.

In fact, I think you can buy small scale (read Home) versions for your own consumption. It wont save you as much because you are the labor and you are not producing in a large quantity but I bet its still cheaper than $4.79 at the pump for current diesel. Imagine what this kind of pricing structure would do for the airline industry. Maybe sell it to the guys that still supply free stuff first :) then let the other guys get in on it.

Excited yet? Just wait until the brains behind algae research produce strains that grow twice as fast and can grow at night.

At the very least we could use this stuff as additives to decrease the use of pure oil and at the most we could all adapt and change out engine designs to run off of it and reduce the use of oil "for fuel" by 90%, obviously over time. This would help to offset the increasing costs in many industries like shipping, transport, airlines, farming, its pretty limitless. So, anyone ready to write a letter to their respective idiot government official yet?



Z


p.s. What danbucks said too.

[danbucks]

Two very important points out of all that:
1) once achieved, algae is not just rapidly renewable, it's rapidly *scalable* ... something things like solar panels are completely unable to achieve (cost, etc.) currently.
2) Z didn't state it, but I always envisioned a gigantic algae tank on my house (on to get sun, and cool the roof at the same time)... the point being, the small scale (read Home) versions - I will guess with decent probability - would cost far less than alternate energy producing plants (e.g. solar array, which has a huge up front cost, and limited life to boot...)

[ziggy951]

Indeed Dan, good points. What we have been discussing is a system similar to the piping systems used currently. Use a small diameter, 2 inches MAX (because at certain densities light can NOT penetrate more than 1 inch of algae thereby wasting a bunch of space in a vat or large tank), clear piping that is hung vertically, like the Vertigrow system among others, and literally fill a greenhouse with them. We would obviously have to leave enough space in between to maintain an adequate light source for all of the pipes.This system would have a constant pump running the water/algae solution through it. Since the growth of algae is exponential, doubles every time, you attempt to extract the amount necessary at specific intervals to maintain a 24 hour (or so) production cycle so that when you remove X amount at the end of the cycle you will have enough algae in the system to get that same X amount in 24 hours (or whatever cycle makes sense to you). This is what we are working with specifically so as to not have to start over with a totally new batch every cycle and only do this when necessary. Hopefully we can develop a process that does just this. By doing this we are hoping to combine scalability with rapid renewability, at least in relative terms to other biofuel production and dino oil.

This isnt really an ideal for the home consumer market but it certainly could be modified for small production and home use.





Z

[RAN]

I could envision biodiesel co-ops, where groups of neighbors or individuals could get together to buy the equipment and produce enough fuel for their needs.

[westonlgray]

Thanks for the info. I had heard that algae might be a better bio-fuel producer, but now we have to worry about that getting squashed by the oil companies and the farm lobyists...

[ziggy951]

Thanks for the info. I had heard that algae might be a better bio-fuel producer, but now we have to worry about that getting squashed by the oil companies and the farm lobyists...

Not really. You could, if you had about $70,000, buy a turnkey system from a few companies that are producing the necessary systems right now. One was listed before in this thread called VertiGrow, another is Algaelink (http://www.algaelink.com/algae-growing-equipment.htm). I am sure there are others. I know CSU of Fortcollins Colorado spun off a company doing this as well... think its called Solex or Solix, not sure. For a farmer this would be phenominal, for a small startup it would be pretty easy, and I think its the best, quickest, and easiest way to start decreasing our need for dino oil specifically for diesel engines, though there are more uses like Ethanol and Jet fuel. FYI jet fuel requires quite a bit more of a process like cataletic cracking and such that really should be left up to a proper refinery but you could produce the raw material that goes into the process.



Z

[danbucks]

sadly, the gov. can put a serious damper on progress here, specifically the CA gov.: they have bass ackwards laws on diesel so ancient and dated most modern diesel engines that are cleaner and more efficient than any standard ICE are still illegal on CA roads. I am sure bills will be passed to quicky fix this, once it's obvious to all how advantageous things like algae diesel is.

[ziggy951]

sadly, the gov. can put a serious damper on progress here, specifically the CA gov.: they have bass ackwards laws on diesel so ancient and dated most modern diesel engines that are cleaner and more efficient than any standard ICE are still illegal on CA roads. I am sure bills will be passed to quicky fix this, once it's obvious to all how advantageous things like algae diesel is.

Thats rough. I guess I am used to Southern Colorado where we dont even have, let alone require emissions testing. I suppose I should be greatful and hope that there are great lawyers that can go up against the regulations and laws that dont allow such things for other states. Hey, I guess there is a good use for lawyers!



Z

[timo2112]

Hi everyone just thought i'd mention , I make my own alcohol fuel... out of cut grass clippings. it costs me roughly 50 cents a gallon and i mix it 50/50 with unleaded from the pump... i brew about 60 gallons a week and it's all legal ! burns cleaner than gas
and i didn't have to convert my tacoma or my rav4 , i've converted my lawnmower to burn straight alcohol and am considering converting my cars... you wouldn't believe how clean the stuff burns... there are books on the subject if you are interested..
"Alcohol can be a gas" is the best one... just thought you might think it interesting !!

[westonlgray]

What are the long term effects on an engine that wasn't designed to use it? In a few years when I move back to my farm, I might be interested in trying to produce fuel, but I will probably be more interested in Diesel so that I can run the farm equipment.

[timo2112]

Well just think of race cars, i have a friend that races his at the track every saturday night and it has been doing great for over two years now..
not only that but i recently emmisioned my truck and the guys at the shop thought something was wrong with their equipment.. it was too clean for
a tacoma, go figure huh ? I had to tell them what i was using in it .. no:wor:thy1

[timo2112]

Also if you read up on the subject, most newer vehicles with fuel injection can run on a 50/50 mix as I do.. without any conversions at all...

[Mark Tomlinson]

From everything I've read (admittedly biased toward biodiesel), biodiesel is more viscus than regular diesel and a better solvent. Hence, a diesel engine runs smother and cleaner on biodiesel. Hence, it also extends the vehicle's life.

Two caveats; first, if shortcuts are taken in the production of some sorts of biodiesel, the fuel may gum up the engine. Second, the solvent effect of biodiesel means that a vehicles which ran on petro-diesel before switching might have to have the fuel filter replaced as biodiesel will remove deposits from the tank and fuel lines and carry them to the engine.