3 wheels or 2 Mr Bond?

[johnlaity]

So you think tilting 3 wheels look cool. What about tilting body?

Check out this design winner:

http://www.cardesignnews.com/site/contests/gallery/view_submission/store497/item113958/

[voyager]

You have a nasty habit of surviving, Mister Bond... Please do try my 1 Wheeler. Hahahaha (evil sounding laughter :-)
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Btw, did eh... someone die? It's getting awfully quiet down here. What happened to good ol' RickB?

[voyager]

Btw, seen this one?

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[voyager]

and this one?... truly innovative as the front wheels can actually vary position during cornering...

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[wireman]

Voyager, regarding Enigma above, my twelve year old son is into every kind of fantasy car/plane/spaceship there is, and he would go ape NUTS over that one! It's a toon car! I must say, however, that the ball joints where the suspension member meets the body are actually a pretty good idea. Aero joint.... no hole in body!

[bmwgc1946]

Unless their is some kind of tilting of these three wheels you would have the same problem as a side car of "flying the chair" on a right hand turn at high speeds. Believe me that can be scary if you are not prepared. Any more info on this vehicle?

[voyager]

Nope...

[johnlaity]

I love the enigma ! LOL

The original post was a student design competition. The concept was that at high speed you rotated the body and rode on 2 wheels like a bike. The driver/rider pod stays in the same orientation.

All very lost in space. LOL

I like the peugout concept.

However the beauty of one wheel upfront and tilting drive is the narrow x-section (with the same stability). If you are going to invest in 3 wheels and two seats, surely you will want to cut down the side of that freeway Q ?

I am consequently becoming a big fan of the monotracer for this reason...just a shame it is the same price as a second hand Bentley Continental GT...hpe it gets a good showing at the next stage of the X-Prize.

Now James Bond joking aside...a colleague of mine works for Chris Courbald and they built eight - four wheel drive Aston Martin Vantage's for Die Another day...In two months...All after being told by Ford and Aston it couldn't be done!

So someone needs to explain to me (real slow) as to why all tilting three wheelers end up being the price of a production Porche 911 Turbo GT Limited Edition with gold wheels and diamond seats...

Chris and his team can build a working jet-powered-stealth-bat-mobile for less than it costs to buy a production Monotracer. AND they have to make more than one - usually 4 - 8 !

Anyone telling you that it costs to build a production car is hiding behind what it costs to build a MASS production vehicle ;0)

The problem with the three wheeled industry is its constant belief that they will sell loads...They have to adopt a TVR approach to manufacture and design for small numbers of sales across evolving designs.

Fibre Glass and Carbon Fibre is expensive to work with, but operates with a low cost of tooling! As such, a sound chassis and drive train can be 20 models of the same car...

YET, look at TVR! They did really well in the mass market because they priced at a mass market level.

If you build a concept that costs the consumer €100K, how many do you really think you going to sell? 20 - 30 world wide?

I would rather sell brushes door to door...

Sorry for spouting ;0)

LOL

[voyager]

How many vehicles can be built AND sold annually determines the cost prize. Rule of thumb is that one needs to produce and sell at least 100,000-150,000 units each year to be truly competitive. I don't see that happening for the monotracer.

[rickb]

The MonoTracer rep said some time ago that they had a plan on the table for mass producing 10,000 units per year which would bring the cost down to (I recall him saying $40,000). He later said they were satisfied hand building a 100 Mono and Etracers per year for the rich and famous. They are passionate about this vehicle and happy to build them for people who appreciate the ride.

With that said BMW could decide to mass produce their new C1 Carcycle Concept with it's side stablilizes and design based on the MonoTracer. BMW has production facilities in place ready to build this new class of vehicle if the demand was there.

[rickb]

Hey Voyager.................also relating to cost the Tango Team mentioned that if they could gear up to produce 10,000 units per year it would drop the cost of their vehicle from $108,000 to around $20,000 that is a significan drop. My guess is the millions of dollars needed to gear up for mass production is the dilemma.

[johnlaity]

I hope BMW take a risk, I drive 1000 miles a week in a C-series Merc...on my own...Criminal and I spend most of my hours in a q somewhere LOL

My observation of the monotracer is that it is an established and proven design...By now it should be cheaper... They probably can survive on a couple of exclusive sales per year...But buyers will already own a bentley, Mercedes and a Porche...else why bother? A Bentley Continental with 40K miles and all the trimmings can be picked up for the same price as a new Montracer...I find it all a bit lazy to be honest and dont expect them to ever do anything different ;0)

I am more hopeful that someone a bit like Peter Wheeler takes over a Tilter Co. Under Wheeler TVR became a main line brand with over 20 models successfully sold across his 10 years of ownership. This is what Wheeler knew:

Carbon Fiber and Fiber Glass is CHEEP to produce and easy to style! Add it to some proven engineering (V8 + Rover Power Train) and then price it correctly - You can then beat ALL the Big Motor Co. (even the giants). It was profitable too! TVR was sold by Wheeler for 15 Million.

You see my "beef" here is that I have an Honors Degree in Engineering (Thermodynamics & Advanced Composites) so I shudder when I see the blue smoke puffed up about the cost of "Going to production". If you ever visited TVR in Blackpool you would have found Bob, Bill and Wayne. Armed with tools you will have at home they built thousands of cars for the mass market.

The UK only lost TVR when its ownership shifted. Nikolay Smolensky (Son of a Russian Millionaire Banker) took over and tried to move production to a high tech production factory in Italy...There is that production bug bear again ;0)

Building a successful marque is not rocket science...BUT it does take the Passion of Christ LOL

[rickb]

Hi Johnlaity.....................I am a big fan of the MonoTracer and Etracer. An interesting video if you haven't seen it. It takes some time to get to the demo (happens to be the original EcoMobile) so be patient. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vETsbfkMHog&NR=1

[rickb]

Here is a quote from the CEO of Peraves regarding mass producing his Tracers:

mass production: we don't want to save the world, and single-track cabin motorcycles won't take over the roads, but there surely is a market for vehicles like ours in the range of 10000 vehicles per year.

Problem is, you need around 200 million bucks to start that. we're looking for it, but not so desperately. We're also happy if we produce 100/year, we can still sell them at 80k, i don't even have a demonstrator right now because the customers keep stealing it out of the showroom. And the price of the electric vehicle is a problem for the whole industry. A modern li-ion battery at present can't be made for less than 500 USD/kWh capacity. The E-Tracer has a 22 kWh battery so that alone costs 11k complete with kevlar case and BMS. a 150kW drive with motor, inverter, DC/DC-converter, 20kW-charger for one-hour recharges and three hour drives, VMS, GFI monotoring system, HV-distribution sells for not less than 20k.

Our monocoque completely made out of kevlar and carbon composites takes at least 200 manhours or 6k to build with all inserts laminated. The bill of material is 10k for the shell and 15k for the suspension, drive shafts, gearbox and outriggers. Then, you're still missing some parts like heating, ventilation, windshields, wipers, leather interior, a/c, stereo, sunroof. About another 10k, then. some 200 hours of mechanical and electrical assy is another 6k. We're now at the costs of 78k, if you followed me so far. That's at 100 units per year. At 1000, it's still over 60k, at 10000, over 50k. and you have to add 100% margin over BOM and manufacturing labour to cover marketing, dealers, guarantee, lawsuits, administration, R&D, payback of the vultures...so at 10000 E-Tracers per year, a serious industrial calculation would still command a 100k sticker price.

So for the moment, we rather make nothing, produce the 100/year, have fun, keep the community small and overseeable, don't have to deal with vultures or raiders. got me? Best regards, xtracer

[WarpedOne]

... lawsuits ...
This man knows where his towel is.

[rickb]

Yes he does! You also have to admire his have fun philosophy too. I would like to be part of his small community. Oh wait! Can't afford that.

[voyager]

There's only one way for an alternatively configured vehicle to break through, and that's when it gets 'adopted' by a major car brand for mass production. To my knowledge it only happened to the guy who invented the Swatch, and who came up with the idea for the Smart Fortwo. Daimler lost around 4 billion dollar so far on the project. The Tango commuter will never be a profitable vehicle, even if it will cost $10,000-12,000. It's just a waste of resources and time what the company is doing.

[rickb]

Perhaps the Tango will be adopted by a major brand. This vehicle has the high performance, mpgs (EV), safety, lane splitting capability and a fun factor that the Smart Fortwo only dreams about. If The father/son team developing a new concept vehicle in the Tango has wasted time and resources then you are implying that every single X-Prize competitor has wasted time and resources? I do not think this to be the case. There are some groundbreaking technology and designs being developed by small start up companies that will probably have to be adopted by a major brand to be mass produced. I don't care so much if they are profitable I just want them to be affordable and in my driveway.