Volkswagen 1L 235 MPG Tandem

[jeremymc7]

So if this is going to ship in 2010 there should be some updates form VW in press release form or at auto shows SOON?!?!?

RIGHT?!?!?!?


http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/07/laugh-at-high-g/

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/02/vw_one_liter_concept01_2.jpg

[ziggy951]

Hopefully with a more realistic build price and less exotic materials that will work for every day use, but yeah that would be nice.



Z

[jeremymc7]

Actually I like the exotic materials. Up to $45k it would be worth it. Agreed the closer to $25k the more likely it will sell better.

[ziggy951]

You would like to drive around on carbon fiber wheels? You do realize that they would be destroyed within months on most US highways and roads and would probably cost about $2-5k per wheel to replace right?

The magnesium and aluminum parts are fine and depending on the cost of the titanium it may be fine as well. But my guess is that further costs cuts could be made so that it came way down in price. We may lose a few mpg because of added weight but the cost savings in the vehicle would probably bring it in the realm of an affordable alternative versus a niche car.

Another thing about using CF for the body is that if it gets damaged you cant repair it. You need to replace the whole thing, or at least that body panel. With fiberglass it can at least be fixed, or even better since its a manufacturer, use polyurethane and aliminum like all modern vehicles. We are talking about a few pounds difference in weight here..like maybe 50lbs total for the entire body going from CF to poly and aluminum. Only poly doesnt break apart from some putz opening his door and smacking the side like FG and CF can.

Dont get me wrong, I think this is a winner. But it takes a special kind of person to drive a vehicle that is built with the same type of processes and materials as an F1 car. I would rather that every day people could drive this vehicle considering its decent looks and great mpg. Not to mention its from a company that is litterally beating the piss out of its competitors right now and OPENING a manufacturing facility in the US.




Z

[jeremymc7]

You would like to drive around on carbon fiber wheels? You do realize that they would be destroyed within months on most US highways and roads and would probably cost about $2-5k per wheel to replace right?
Z

Specifically I was talking more about the drive-train, body, etc. I wasn't really thinking about the wheels. Obviously there are things that would need to be changed for production and specifically in the US. I don't even see a windshield wiper and it's not going to get into the US as a production car without one. VW stated they would add air bags, ABS, etc when bringing it to the US. That's going to effect weight and MPG already.



The magnesium and aluminum parts are fine and depending on the cost of the titanium it may be fine as well. But my guess is that further costs cuts could be made so that it came way down in price. We may lose a few mpg because of added weight but the cost savings in the vehicle would probably bring it in the realm of an affordable alternative versus a niche car.
Z

The question is how much is acceptable. You start adding too much equipment and swapping out exotic materials for standard materials and you destroy the whole concept of the machine. It might look the same but if it starts driving like a slug and/or has only standard car MPG then what's the point unless the style was the only thing that interested you.



Another thing about using CF for the body is that if it gets damaged you cant repair it. You need to replace the whole thing, or at least that body panel. With fiberglass it can at least be fixed, or even better since its a manufacturer, use polyurethane and aluminum like all modern vehicles. We are talking about a few pounds difference in weight here..like maybe 50lbs total for the entire body going from CF to poly and aluminum. Only poly doesn't break apart from some putz opening his door and smacking the side like FG and CF can.
Z

50 pounds is a big difference. The car itself is about 500 lbs so that alone would be a 10% increase in weight. That's going to have a big hit to the MPG. And since it wouldn't be the only change to get the car into the US you would be talking about cutting the milage in half or worse. Keep in mind VW already said they would likely change the engine from a single to a dual for the US which would cut milage as well. I understand about the carbon, repairs, and cost. Cost is an issue with VW as well. Initially they stated they wouldn't bring it out till 2012 at least when costs would hopefully be more reasonable. They chose to bring it out in 2010 knowing the costs for their vision would be more. It's also going to be a limited volume for the first 1-2 years. In all honestly though if you want the vision you have to pay for it. Think of it more in the exotic car end. Besides when I had my '99 VW Passet and it got the door skin crushed in VW wouldn't sell the skin since they came from the factory welded onto the door frame for "strength". I could either buy a whole new door or manually have the skin heated and banged out. With the amount of time it took to repair the door most people would just pay for a new door and it would be cheaper.



Don't get me wrong, I think this is a winner. But it takes a special kind of person to drive a vehicle that is built with the same type of processes and materials as an F1 car. I would rather that every day people could drive this vehicle considering its decent looks and great mpg. Not to mention its from a company that is literately beating the piss out of its competitors right now and OPENING a manufacturing facility in the US.
Z

Agreed. I think it's just going to come out in limited volume as a test mule for people that are willing to pay the price. In a few years the cost for materials will be less, they'll have better/cheaper alternative materials, or they can switch to more common materials with maybe a new manufacturing process that doesn't effect the performance as much.They can move it from niche to everyday in a few years or "re-tool" it in a few years to something the everyday person would accept. Especially since I don't think the "average" person is going to want to drive a two seat car in bobsled fashion.

Hopefully we'll see something from them soon. The more alternative's the better. Even if they're not all priced at common man levels.

Cheers !

[voyager]

I like the car not only because of its fuel efficiency, but also for its promise of more space-efficient use of the infrastructure that's already present. No more asphalt needed in principle. The Space-Efficient Vehicle is based on the same philosophy. 90-95% of all cars carry just one person, particularly during rush hours when traffic is at its worst. Why don't we slim down what may well be the second car in our household, for the sake of rapid transit? Sleek, lightweight vehicles have many advantages: superior fuel economy, lower emissions, intriguing design perspectives, and lean production potential. Plus superior range if equipped with an electric motor and batteries. The narrowing of freeway lanes is possible (so you can have more of them), so are designated lanes for these type of narrow track vehicles, including motorcycles. But I do think that the VW car is a bit non-descript.

[rickb]

Which of the body styles will make it to production? This look may be more acceptable to broader market base.

http://www.motorauthority.com/gallery/vw-1liter-car/vw-1liter-car.html

[jeremymc7]

I like the car not only because of its fuel efficiency, but also for its promise of more space-efficient use of the infrastructure that's already present. No more asphalt needed in principle. The Space-Efficient Vehicle is based on the same philosophy. 90-95% of all cars carry just one person, particularly during rush hours when traffic is at its worst. Why don't we slim down what may well be the second car in our household, for the sake of rapid transit? Sleek, lightweight vehicles have many advantages: superior fuel economy, lower emissions, intriguing design perspectives, and lean production potential. Plus superior range if equipped with an electric motor and batteries. The narrowing of freeway lanes is possible (so you can have more of them), so are designated lanes for these type of narrow track vehicles, including motorcycles. But I do think that the VW car is a bit non-descript.


Exactly. Most of the time I'm driving by myself. And most of that is local. When I'm not it's usually just two of us. Either just local or on a long road trip. When it's more then two we have the second family car. There is no reason for us that we need two cars that seat 5 people.

What's interesting is if you look at the GM Lean Machine thread there's a link imbedded in there on a study that was conducted. It stated that in New York for example they could almost double parking spaces and reduce traffic by a huge margin by just using existing road but repainting. Now that was of course with everyone driving this size, They even had custom designed stacked parking that still allowed people to get in and out. Very interesting. I think the same thing with the VW 1L. But we all know that wouldn't happen for some time.

[rickb]

The more I think about it the the VW1L at the top (#1) looks like the concept vehicle design and the photo at motor authority looks like a tweeked production design vehicle. not quite so exotic. It looks like a shaved down version of the VW Beetle. Actually an acceptable design providing all the advantages this vehicle offers.

[RAN]

I like the Motor Authority version better - It has more "personality" while still retaining most if not all of the aerodynamics of the concept version.

Make it an EV and I'd put it on my "next car" list.

[jeremymc7]

Here's the conceptual production version so people can contrast the difference in one place.

Note: Tried to edit my original post but it looks like there's a time limit to edits here.

Conceptional Production Version
http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/v/w/vw_1liter_car-0917-950x650.jpg
http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/VW/odds/VW_1Liter_new.jpg

Original Prototype (for comparison in same angle on same page)
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/02/vw_one_liter_concept01_2.jpg

Article details on supposed production version. Motor Authority quote follows.

"As outrageous as the idea of a production 1L/100km (235mpg) car sounds, more reports have emerged confirming the ultra-frugal car is in fact in development and that it could be on the market by as early as 2010. At last year's Frankfurt Motor Show senior VW exec Ferdinand Piëch claimed the car would be available by the end of the decade and a month later, CEO Martin Winterkorn backed up the claim as well as providing some of the production details. The latest reports indicate the car might not be a single-cylinder petrol design like the concept, but a two-cylinder diesel-electric mild hybrid.

Discussing the car's sales potential last year, Winterkorn stressed that the 1-Liter “would not be a best seller” and thus will only be produced in limited numbers. Its body will be constructed from carbon fiber, plastic and magnesium. Top speed with the one-cylinder 0.3L engine of the 2002 1-Liter concept was expected to be around 120km/h with average fuel consumption around the 1L/100km mark (235mpg). Those numbers aren't expected to change much with the shift to the diesel hybrid design. The change is expected to add drivability and low-end acceleration to the car, although its lightweight will also make easy work for even the small engine and motor combination.

The vehicle's weight is estimated to be a mere 300kg (660lb) thanks to its small size, tandem seating configuration and lightweight construction. That would make the car a very difficult structure to secure in the event of an accident, especially with the panoramic fighter-jet style canopy over the occupants and the very low profile of the car. VW seems confident that it can get the car produced and certified for on-road use, however.

Pricing is expected to fall somewhere between €20,000 and €30,000 ($31,400 to $47,100). Assembly is tipped to take place in VW's prototype shop, which can produce 1,000 cars per year at full tilt, reports CAR.

The version from 2002 ended up doing even better than its target fuel efficiency, requiring just 0.89L/100km (achieving 264mpg). Whether the new diesel hybrid will achieve similar results remains to be seen. " - Motor Authority

[rickb]

jeremymc7.........thanks for posting that.

[jeremymc7]

jeremymc7.........thanks for posting that.

No problem. Only wish I could have found a flipped version of the 1st Motor Authority photo. You'll notice in the two Motor Authority "supposed" production photos they are actually different "production" designs. Slightly different but look close enough.

Both Motor Authority designs are much different from the actual working prototype. I'm really not sure which I prefer. The color comparison throws off perception slightly but beside that the prototype is more aggressive which I like. But "maybe" too sterile? The conceptional production designs or cleaner looking but maybe too watered down, which actually seems to happen a lot between concept and production car designs. Don't get me wrong a production tandem two seater jet fighter design will NEVER look like anything else on the road, but the proposed production designs seem to bring just a bit too many "commonplace" current car designs into them.

[ziggy951]

I liked the concept but the production version looks like they slammed a bug into an insight then cut it in half. It had better get some serious mileage if it looks this fuggly.



Z

[voyager]

Exactly. Most of the time I'm driving by myself. And most of that is local. When I'm not it's usually just two of us. Either just local or on a long road trip. When it's more then two we have the second family car. There is no reason for us that we need two cars that seat 5 people.

What's interesting is if you look at the GM Lean Machine thread there's a link imbedded in there on a study that was conducted. It stated that in New York for example they could almost double parking spaces and reduce traffic by a huge margin by just using existing road but repainting. Now that was of course with everyone driving this size, They even had custom designed stacked parking that still allowed people to get in and out. Very interesting. I think the same thing with the VW 1L. But we all know that wouldn't happen for some time.

Didn't know about the GM Lean Machine (good name!)... Yeah, our whole infrastructure can be used far more efficiently. Particularly parking lots and garages. Underneath you see a picture of how this may take place in the future. Added benefit is the safer exiting and boarding of the vehicle (on the sidewalk) and the more controlled merge into traffic. The driver does not to peer over his shoulder when he drives off.

http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2008/Site/mcd_gallery_2008/mcd_2008_240/3-Drawings/Ralph_Panhuyzen/SEV_MCD-05.jpg

[rickb]

Voyager............It seems a more efficient use of our existing infrastructure is closer than you think with the VW 1L Tandem debut in 2010. It seems to have a similar footprint to the vehicle in the schematic.

[jeremymc7]

The study by UC Berkeley from 1990 on the GM Lean machine has some interesting parking diagrams as well. I tried to find pictures to link too but all I could find was a PDF. Check in about 2/3 of the way through. The whole study on three wheel tilters ia over 30+ pages and interesting reading as well.

NOTE: Opens PDF file for download.
http://www.path.berkeley.edu/PATH/Publications/PDF/PRR/90/PRR-90-04.pdf

[voyager]

You will probably be able to park four VW 1 Liter cars (instead of the three you saw in the picture). I read somewhere that VW's car is supposed to be 110 cm wide (43 "). The SEV's width measures 1.45 cm (57 "). That's to carry three people with more comfort and personal space than the VW car or the Volvo tandem (picture) will be able to offer. Safer too. Yeah, that's right.... Volvo has also done some serious studies regarding so-called narrow track vehicles. BMW ditto with the Clever that was also discussed here.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/12/2008/05/340x_VMCC-Tandem-Car-Concept-thumb.jpg

[MVRacing]

Jeremymc7,
nice find, some interesting reading. Even for a 1990 report it appeared awful amateurish, especially the figures.

[voyager]

Here's another solution, developed by the Smart Cities Group... together with GM... "Can someone 'free' #4?... Left my briefcase in there."

http://www.zerauto.nl/blog/media/blogs/zerauto/2008/39/080919_citycar_subway_x600_440x275.jpg

[voyager]

Luv this one...

http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2008/Site/mcd_gallery_2008/mcd_2008_240/2-Scale_Models/Rubem_Pozza_Ferreira/P3.jpg http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2008/Site/mcd_gallery_2008/mcd_2008_240/2-Scale_Models/Rubem_Pozza_Ferreira/P5.jpg

[jeremymc7]

Luv this one...




Ok, where's the link to those one's they look like a Tron lightcycle. Drool!

[rickb]

That Yellow Volvo Narow Track 4 wheel motorcyle looks very interesting. Make that a 2F1R Tilter and we may have something there. The fenders give it that hot rod of the future look.

[RAN]

Ok, where's the link to those one's they look like a Tron lightcycle. Drool!

That one is called "Drop." you can see it here. (http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2008/Site/mcd_gallery_2008/mcd_2008_gallery_s01.asp)
It's from the 2008 Michelin Design Challenge. You can see the rest of 2008's designs here. (http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2008/Site/mcd_gallery_2008/mcd_participants_2008.asp)

This year's showcase is here. (http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2009/Site/mcd_gallery_2009/mcd_participants_2009.asp)

[TazmanianKoala]

I personally like the Dutch design (http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2008/Site/mcd_gallery_2008/mcd_2008_gallery_d13.asp) for the 2008 challange.
http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/MCD_2008/Site/mcd_gallery_2008/mcd_2008_240/3-Drawings/Ralph_Panhuyzen/SEV_MCD-03.jpg