Open source Vector

[slowblast]

With the news of Craver’s difficulties... And the diminishing news from Persu Mobility. Obviously the crappy economy is impacting this Idea and the viability of bringing this to amassing craft to market... One of the major design/marketing issues here is product liability... So, I thought I would offer up an idea for your discussion and interest.

We most all, have had the thought at one time or another. Of exactly what the good men in Holland created in the Carver… But none, has had the time and money to fully explore such an idea… I think I first envision such a speedster, while riding home from work on a very cold and rainy April day in 1977 on my Kaw 400Z. Buy the time I got home I was so cold and wet, that I decided just to walk directly into the shower, shoes cloths and all. Sounds Familiar? That’s why we all loved the Carver idea. We’ve all seen it in our minds eye, at one time or another.

Obviously such and idea takes extreme dedication and motivation. My most resent project has been to build a VW Sand buggy from scratch. Yes, tube bending and welding... Engine rebuilding, you name it was unbelievably easy. I just completed it this winter and now am looking for a new project. So here is what I propose…

Build an Open Source Vector One… Anyone wants to build one with me…

Here the idea on Open Source…, It’s team effort through design to production. All party’s interested begin chatting to come up with ideas on how to build a Vector. Obviously some of you are pretty savvy, I myself have spent the last 35 years as a ME-EE Design Engineer. I know my way around motion control, hydraulic and electric... And you have your expertise. With the availability of CAD SW, It shouldn’t be hard to come up with a complete viable design. Ever watch OC-Choppers or Monster garage. What ever we design we put on the web in full Cad detail and any body and every body can build what they want. Guys that run small job shops, can offer to build and sell parts (frames, suspension gearing and glass body panels). Yea when were done, it may not look as nice. But it will be just fun too drive, just like my old 65 Corvar Corsa with it’s Buick 235 V6 setting in the back seat was.

And in doing so It just may spark a serious kit building company, so though of you not so savvy, can buy parts and build one too…

My initial idea is to use a motor cycle engine with an ATV drive train. Yea, I though about the Tilt and Steering, in detail, using parts sim-to a design I did to emulate ships motion for gyro antenna position tests at work, but I want to hear your ideas too.

What I need to get started right now is a WIKI web site, a place to dump the design Files and Drafts to spark the Web’s Imagination... Any web masters wants to offer such a site to begin?

p.s
SEE http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Main_Page (http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Main_Page) for a good example of Open Source and, it’s is capabilities?

[Mike kZ]

You could always look at tilting trike rear ends
http://www.mysterydesigns.com/tomahawk.htm

[Gunner]

I really like this idea. We could even have more than one way to do things posted such as different designs for the front end like all the ones we voted on with the V1, or different types of tilting mechanisms. Someone might even become proficient at building these type of vehicles in their shop and offer the opportunity to pay your money and fly out and help build your own vehicle there and drive it away. This has got a lot of potiential I think.

[Derwin]

My initial idea is to use a motor cycle engine with an ATV drive train. Yea, I though about the Tilt and Steering, in detail, using parts sim-to a design I did to emulate ships motion for gyro antenna position tests at work, but I want to hear your ideas too.

What I need to get started right now is a WIKI web site, a place to dump the design Files and Drafts to spark the Web’s Imagination... Any web masters wants to offer such a site to begin?



Welcome to the club, slowblast! wel;co;m;e101))

I like your idea, and I would like to entertain the thought of getting something up and running in conjunction with this club, of course. But since you are a new member, I think you should give us a little background history of yourself so we know exactly where your coming from. Actually, if you could, please contact me personally at derwin@flytheroadclub.com so we can talk.

I would be willing to put the site together, and invite members to come join. But we need a little more information.

Again, welcome to the club.

Derwin

[wireman]

Now we might be cookin with (algae dirived) gas here. I myself have a body design I have been working on, and have been searching for just this type of web site to get help with the frame and running gear. As Slowblast said, the promise of vehicles like PH/Dagne...etc. doesn't seem to be materializing as fast as we would like. If the Open Source becomes a going concern, we would all get to contribute, and most importantly, OBSERVE the creation of these vehicles. Just like the rest of you, I hate getting information in dribs n' drabs (or not at all)!!! YNK guys, we might just show them how it's done!

[Derwin]

Sloblast,

Thanks for the email. It sure sounds like you have a large amount of expertise in this field, and would know how to get something like this going in a serious manner.

Let me tell you... I'm all for it! If we can put something together that all club members can benefit from, then lets do it. I have no problem putting up a website where members can go and interact. I just need to know EXACTLY what we will need in regards to that. Please post here any and all information/ideas about this, and then we can take this to the next level.

Thanks.

Derwin

[rogwild]

If we get some 'open source' project going, there are a lot of resources on the web that might be interested and can offer their expertise and assistance. There are yahoo groups and others like 'tilting@yahoogroups.com ', 'CabinScooters@yahoogroups.com ', '3WheelerReplicas', 'powerassistedtrikes', 'three-wheelers', etc. that we could notify and invite their input. Maybe we could start this 'project', after we get our RC model kit info completed.

[Derwin]

Maybe we could start this 'project', after we get our RC model kit info completed.

Sorry, rog, but the MEMBERS of this club put an end to the RC project. It seems nobody wanted to pay the price for getting these things produced. It ended up being unfeasible.

But this open source idea has some very good merit. There would be no ONE person that is putting out all of the money. It would be a GROUP effort.

In my mind, this sounds good. Now how to get it off the ground is another story!

Derwin

[WarpedOne]

Now this is a great idea.

Unfortunately, opensourcing a mechanical design is not exactly like opensourcing software. Coming up with design is only part of a problem, the other bigger one is producing it - finding parts and putting them all together in a correct and reliable way. This is way more demanding than recompiling some source code you grab from the web.

"Vector One kit" is thus cruical for succesful fruitition of the idea.

The other problem or danger I see is the one of "too many cooks spoil the broth". This project should be developed in an open fashion - take it or leave it. For start we could just create a pool for various ideas, files, partial technical designs etc and see where this will take us. Baby steps.

[rogwild]

Maybe we could start this 'project', after we get our RC model kit info completed.


Sorry, rog, but the MEMBERS of this club put an end to the RC project. It seems nobody wanted to pay the price for getting these things produced. It ended up being unfeasible.
............

Derwin

I mentioned the "kit info", not a complete produced and assembled model for sale (that the membership was not willing to pay for), but a list of parts required, sources for the parts (and costs), along with directions for turning it into a working RC 3-wheeled 'tilting' vehicle (without fancy bodywork). Most of which was already 'acomplished' by the prototype. That concept was not "put to an end" by the MEMBERS.


Now this is a great idea.

Unfortunately, opensourcing a mechanical design is not exactly like opensourcing software. Coming up with design is only part of a problem, the other bigger one is producing it - finding parts and putting them all together in a correct and reliable way. ...............

"Vector One kit" is thus cruical for succesful fruitition of the idea.

The other problem or danger I see is the one of "too many cooks spoil the broth". This project should be developed in an open fashion - take it or leave it. For start we could just create a pool for various ideas, files, partial technical designs etc and see where this will take us. Baby steps.

What is required, is an experienced 'organizer' that can divide the 'PROJECT' into components; vehicle performance/specifications, body design, propulsion method, 'tilting' technology, instrumentation/lighting/electrical, wheels/tires/brakes, safety features, etc.
Then open forums can discuss the merits of the different systems and propose designs, sketches, and materials required.
Instead of becoming a "Vehicle Manufacturer", perhaps first 'plans' could be produced, then maybe 'kits' that could be homebuilt or have built by a local shop. AFTER a few 'prototypes' have been built, registered, and 'road tested', then perhaps maybe a 'FOR SALE KIT' could be produced, and perhaps a 'pre-assembled' vehicle. But I have a feeling that by then the Persu Hybrid, or similar 3-wheeler will be available for purchase.

If we do it as a 'Design Exercise', it may be worthwhile (to pass the time and stimulate discussion), but probably is not a feasible method to mass produce a 'tilting' vehicle.

[Derwin]

If we do it as a 'Design Exercise', it may be worthwhile (to pass the time and stimulate discussion), but probably is not a feasible method to mass produce a 'tilting' vehicle.

Rog, I seriously don't think anybody here was talking about "mass producing" anything.

The idea is good. But rog is correct in that we need somebody to "organize" everything. It would have to be a person who is knowledgeable about these things, and would know exactly what needs to get done.

Any volunteers?

Derwin

[nadeaup]

Count me in. Should we first start by contacting Dange and asking if they would like to convert their current project to Open source?

If we can't get things setup here, I will offer to setup a wiki, blog, website, cms or forums etc and host it on one of my servers...

I don't have design skills but I run and have run many large scale projects for fortune 100 companies so I am sure I will be able to provide some good assistance around planning, and possibly some funding... I am also a tinkerer and am always building some project for fun...

Let me know what I can do to help.

-Patrick

[slowblast]

Ah.. we do have some interest… Gunner, that’s exactly the idea, we all have ideas, working together we come up with other ideas or improve the ones we have… And, Wireman I saw your V1 body done in Sketchup.. I’m impressed, that CAD isn’t the easiest SW to do complex curves with. The neat thing about Sketchup is its free to use. So it would make a good common tool. I hope your thinking about how to make the parts?

There are other CAD programs that are very powerful, some even offer education discounts… Solidworks offer a 2yr license for ~$100 The neat thing about 3D modeling, is after your done with the model, it’s easy to pull the pieces apart and start building parts to dimensions. And when you put the pieces together… Walla. It looks just like the model!

So here a little about my self… I’ve worked for 35 yrs as Design Engineer Primarily, I’m an EE but I do a lot of ME work. I do FPGA logic and embedded processor designs and have a good back ground in motion control/servo devices… I typically don’t do software code. But I do understand how it all works. As a kid 15-30, I was heavily into racing cars… I enjoy riding bikes both with motors and pedals and have taken a few spills, yep asphalt cooked hamburger, but no broken bones…. Ya, your right, I’m making my self sick here.. Enough!

First of all, I really hope that Persu gets it together. I’m not trying to taking anything from them or Carver. And I hope that the principles HERE, realize that, my goal is pure enjoyment and education for myself and others... And, to increase the overall interest, in Tri Tilt. The problems they’re facing are tough ones and it always helps to show investors some intense market interest.

As for open Source… Most people think they should have exclusive rights to the work they done. And they should be compensated for all the work that they do. Open source is based on the idea the work freely shared with the world, will be returned many fold you… And, it does work, I routinely save thousand of hours using open source FPGA cores in product designs… and I return I give to back the OS library the associated cores that I developed to complete a particular project. Mechanical designs are no different. Most companies now use common libraries internally. And Vendors are posting free models on their Web in hopes of getting you to used their product.. Models on the web are typically free and thus free to modify and uses elsewhere.

Kit Cars… If you’re looking for a V1 in a box with “Some Assembly Required” plastered on the side. You’re missing the point! One of the most successful car kit manufactures offer their kits at any level you want to buy it. Yea its pain offering custom orders, but they knew it was key to their success, cause each builder has his own entry level and most importantly wants his own level of customization. The game here needs to be pretty much the same. You take what you want and develop what you can, and always GIVE back your ideas, including the problems you ran into…along with your sources (both soft and hard)… i.e If you go looking for a part and find someone that has a bunch they want unload, post your (hard) source along with all the (soft) details that you used to make it work. Someone else might like the idea and figure out an easier way to make it work… If someone else likes the idea they may ask for help… You now the option of helping your source unload his product. Or, to provide their services to others.

Ok, for the ideas… I’ve always found that it’s easier to buy a stock part and modify it to suit your needs rather than designing and machine your own, have you ever gone looking at prices of custom coppers… 20K-50K? Its clear Custom Shops parts are out. There is a lot of stuff out there, case in point. If you need something like an Inst Panel, why buy expensive New Stuart Warner Gauges and build them in, when say a 91-02 Toyota 4-Runner dash would work. Its cheep, about the right size, it looks nice and Hay its symmetrical! Ok you may need some help figuring out how to make it work. Someone may know the tricks. Your reward maybe some other part that is all detailed saving you time and money.

One of my favor rules and what I live by is Kelly Johnson’s rule -- KISS “Keep It Simple - Stupid”

We start with getting the basic cabin frame laid out. I plan on doing two or three designs, one stretched for two seats. I fully expect someone else to modify it, or do there own… which one do I use? Hopefully the best one developed!..

To build the sand rail, I bought $200 Mig welder, and a tank of Argon gas… It took all of 4 hour reading stuff on the web and another 2 hours of playing to get (somewhat) proficient and was amassed how heavy of a piece I could work. Then I had to bend the tubing… I didn’t want to by a tubing bender, so I went down to my local muffler shops and told them a story… The first two shops looked at me like the crazy bastard I am. But then I found a privately owned shop… A 6 packs of Beer, And a promise to get my exhaust done there. The owner helped me out… A few bends later, he said, “Damn you are crazy! You know how it works, I’ve got beer to go drink”… Good man! Two months and a lot more beer, I had my frame welded up. $200 got all the parts powder coated. Don’t like welding? Anyone know a welder out of work? If not find one in a phone book and be sure to offer listing his reference…

Ok, Steering Mech… That’s a real Bear!!!.. Not building it, but making it work.. Ever hear of Fly-By-Wire and Electric Rams (aka Actuators) scary I know, but it works see the ‘Dagne Vehicle’… Can we can get public safety to by off on it… maybe??... Save that for later... Much later.. Think on that while sleeping… Get some momentum first? But remember it’s not a car and its not a bike… It’s a kit? Most states get lenient, if they can’t figure out what it is..

The motor thing… Yea I want Electric too… We all know that Li is the only way to go… Guess what? Li Battery cost is a nightmare and will be for quite a while, cause Tesla and others (Persu? Hopefully) has the production allocated for the next few (5+) years... But hay, we can still work on an electric drive. I even thought of using a Small (OK.. Large 15 KW) Cots Gas powered Generator as the hybrid source… new ~$1k…
Hay I want to get this thing moving first, then tinker with efficiency and clean air. But, that is the beauty of the design… Undo the pivot bearing nut and swap it out, with a Warp Drive… (Yea I’m a Treky, but only cause Scotty had a cool accent and drinks Scotch)... My first thought is using suspension/drive parts from a beefy ATV. You know how Hunters are always running into a “Damn Tree!”… That means new (repair) parts are cheep (well relative). And gutting the engine and rear suspension from a newly “Tree-ed” ATV is even cheaper.

The Tilt parts... that’s not a big problem really… My real worry is the Pivot… There’s is a lot of force there and very little support… We will need to some serious ME advice here... I’m thinking front axle and wheel hub from a diesel truck… worry worry worry… Hay it’s a Start, OK!…

That’s enough for now… Oh Wait… One more thing…

WE DON’T NEED A TILTING CUP HOLDER!!!!… Any one wants one.. Just do it… But keep quite about it!!! We don’t want Persu, to get all huffy on us, now do we...

Ttilted….

[slowblast]

Rog

This might be a good idea to start working the bug out. We could do a cad frame design to scale and make the frame out of brass model tubing and solder using miniature servos for tilt and steering.. A small slow speed motor with a double shaft and wheels for drive… put the radio in the body and someone could build molds to make the body panels…

What scale where you thinking of?

[Jack Willard]

Okay slowblast, after that long second post of yours, I really can't hold back now. wel;co;m;e101)) Great ideas!

I agree with rogwild's suggestion for a 'Design Exercise'. I'm up for it and AutoCAD design is what I do. It would be fun and help us to pass the time while we wait... and wait... and wait... for some company to FINALLY get done and bring us a vehicle that we want to buy. =y:

[rogwild]

To 'Kick Off' the PROJECT and make it more manageable, perhaps we should start a new thread; The "TILTER ONE" (T-1) PROJECT, in the 'Other Topics' section. We could have separate threads for the different areas of discussion, such as design, chassis, powerplant, electronics, steering, tilting technology, etc. to focus the discussion and make the 'project' more manageable. If this thing has 'legs' and 'takes off', we could consider moving it to its own webpage, but probably best to start small, gauge interest/participation, and 'digest' the vastness of the undertaking.

[slowblast]

Ok busy morning...Here's the back bone in SkcetchUp 7.0 decide to make it 18 wide 6ft long (two seater). The V is 12 in high... pic and model of attached. I gave Derwing the info on the Wiki web software via mail...

So Wireman, want to share you dimensing of your model for the body... see if were thinking so what the same?

Now for the fun part gota go fix a fence post!!

later!

[hedger65]

Hello everyone! I have not posted in a long time but wanted to say that I think this is a great idea! If nothing else,it will keep us busy until/if Persu ever gets there stuff together. As a hybrid tech , I will try to offer any practical ideas that come along. Good luck to us all!!!

hedger65;)

[Derwin]

Now I guess we should consider starting a website dedicated to this project, or (at a minimum), set up a separate forum which is password protected for those interested in participating.

What do you think?

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

I think we should initially start up a seperate forum here and see where it goes. Since this is an 'Open Source' so to speak I don't think we need to password it.

[wireman]

Agree 100% AZE, open forum, no p.w.. Welcome back H65, YES INDEED your input on the forum is going to be very useful. I must apologize Sb, because I should have mentioned that my design is not a tilter. It is a fusion of Robert Q. Riley's Trimuter and the TriVette. The Trimuter, because I am gaga over that strong, wind-cheating wedge shape! The "vette", due to it's inline seating, and the excellent stability and cornering of the chassis due to the very low CG, and the correct weight distribution.

[Mike kZ]

I must apologize Sb, because I should have mentioned that my design is not a tilter. .


It has to be a tilter! That's what everyone here wants.

[WarpedOne]

Absolutely. To tilt or not to tilt, that is not the question! :COP:
But we might have a problem designing a reliable, simple to build and simple to drive tilting solution.

Licencing DVC tech is probably not an option. Patents etc.

[rogwild]

I agree, it MUST TILT, to give the stability, performance/maneuverability at speed, and the sheer FUN driving experience.
The 'tilting' system will be the major challenge, but the many 'tilting' vehicles out there from bikes/trikes, to ATV's and CLEVERs, Dagnes, and Italy's TTW should provide a solution. With some combination of these concepts (perhaps hydraulic assist to a bike/trike system) there should be a way, without using the patented DVC system.
We don't want to put all the time and effort into a project, and end up with great vehicle that does THIS:

[AZEqualizer]

Yea, if it wasn't going to be a tilter I would go with the tadpole configuration to give it more stability. For a tadpole I kind of like the XR3.. but there are things about it that I have likes, dislikes and questions. But that is the thing that works on a kit type vehicle is to modify it to your own likes. Baring technical money barriers.

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/03/xr3c_front.jpg

[Derwin]

I would agree with the others....this must be a TILTING project. There are already workable kits available for non leaning tadpoles like the one that AZE pointed out. For this to be very unique and true to this club, our project should be strictly a leaner in my opinion.

[Derwin]

As you may have noticed, I just created a new FORUM for this project called : Open Source Vehicle Project. You can now create threads in this forum exclusively for this project. I also MOVED this thread to this new forum.

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

OK now we need to get some ideas of the major sub forums needed.... For Example:
General
Frame
Body
Drive Train
etc.

Give us your ideas so that we can make this a easier project to navigate..

[Hoosier]

When it comes time to dress up this pig, I'm your guy!

2thumb:up

[Jack Willard]

Using the Persu vehicle as a starting concept for design, here are my Sub forums to begin with:

General Discussion, Cockpit, Engine/Drivetrain Pod

Under Cockpit: Body Shell, Doors, Windows, Metal Frame, Seats, Battery Pack, Dashboard/Electronics, Side Armrests/Controls, Steering Wheel/Post, Front Wheel/Suspension, Headlights, Turnsignals, Mirrors (cameras?), HVAC

Under Engine/Drivetrain Pod: Body Shell, Metal Frame, Engine, Fuel Tank, Drivetrain/Transmission, Suspension, Wheels, Tilt Technology

[NortonF1]

You guys are an interesting bunch!

First You were trying to build a tilting R/C model, and didn´t get it to the drawing board, and now You are discussing to build a real vehicle, something that took Carver 11 years to get it done, and the Carver One is still far away from beeing a perfect vehicle.

And how long is VV (or Persu) developing until today and how many millions of $$ have they spent?

I wish You much luck!

Regards Hans

[Derwin]

You guys are an interesting bunch!

First You were trying to build a tilting R/C model, and didn´t get it to the drawing board...

LOL! I understand you cynicism, Hans!

But Persu put halt to the R/C project on us, and actually told me PERSONALLY that we would not be allowed to proceed. So I wasn't about to go against their wished, since we have an ongoing contract with the company.

Secondly, the members of this club voted, and they showed very clearly that they were not interested in paying even a couple hundred dollars for a R/C vehicle of any kind. When I seen the results of this poll, that's when I pulled the plug on the entire project. It simply was not worth it for me to invest thousands of dollars in the production of an R/C model, if the majority in this club weren't willing to pay for an end product.

About this open source vehicle.... We are not trying to re-invent the wheel here, Hans! And we certainly are not the FIRST group to come up with such an idea. Actually, there are a bunch of groups on Yahoo (as rogwild mentioned) that are already doing similar things.

As to Carver and Persu spending so many dollars and so much time developing their vehicles...Well, we are not encumbered with the many regulatory restrictions that these companies are stradled with. We are not attempting to create a production-grade model. These would be one-offs made out of a persons garage. Heck, look at what Revolution Motors has done with the Dagne. They did that out of their garage! And they have a working vehicle, for goodness sakes!

I think we can do this thing, and we may all be riding a unique three-wheeled tilting vehicle before Persu even comes to market. Am I being too optimistic? Well, I guess we'll see. It all depends on the contributions of the members.

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

NortonF1 here's the thing - sometimes the planning keeps one occupied until /when the thing you want is developed or it is a mental exercise -Giving one insight into how something can be constructed. Some people will even go all the way and develop it to the end because they find the resources and like to tinker. And some people stand around.

gath:er:2

[Gunner]

I say less talk more action.

[Derwin]

I say less talk more action.

Amen, brother. thu:mbs:up:22

Derwin

[slowblast]

Been away for a while… Nice to see we got moved to a new forum. Did some major rethinking on the frame. Decided that I need to get a serious 3D CAD going… should have that up an running by this weekend..

The frame design is initially a single seater. I will do a stretch version two seater. (Minor mod).. I worked up some detailed dimensions and will wait to put them on the CAD model and upload it. The frame will be a basic roll cage for safety.

Anybody have some serious ideas on body works? I’m from the old school… Glass (heavy). What we need is (light) poly body panels… Anybody got a big vac-u-form?

The actual tilt mech is not that tough. We use hydraulic actuators. They make units with embed servo sensors so they feedback their position electrically to the Servo controlling the spool valve (hydr flow control)..

The front end steering can use the same type actuators.. (smaller). But, I have been looking at some electric units that produce about 250 lbs of force in motion, and they support well over 1500 lbs at stall.

I’m serious about fly-by-wire, but we’re not building an F22. So I’m planig a Yoke, you may want a Stick!… both will work!!!

Remember the old hot-rods with the Model T drop front axels? They had King Pin Pivot wheel spindles. Since the front wheel will use a single (vert) swing arm. I’m thinking a King pin setup is a must…

And AC is a sure thing!!! Pop out the window… Slip on the vintage (clear) welder’s gogs… And it’s just like riding a Hog. Except ya got air blowing up the shirt sleeves… keeping ya cool…. Hay look mom! No leathers!! Got a Cage!!!…

Hay!!! did I here someone say Door(s) ???? What? you need two? Just so you have achoice… Personally, if I had a choice, I wouldn’t know how to act, I would try to use both at Once!!! Thinking that would hurt!!!… Just have’n fun here!!!! ;) But then again, the back seat has it’s own door??? Maybe..

Start thinking the big thoughts!!!!…

[slowblast]

OH and as soon as get the fame done I expect some to build it to scale using brass model tubing for the RC_V1.

[WarpedOne]

Yes, I want two doors - left and right door, I hate asymetry :D

Rear seat doesn't need its own door, just make the doors a little longer and they will cover the occasional passanger just fine.

Regarding tilting, it's not the mechanics that I'm worried about, its the control logic. How to make it tilt automaticaly and just the right amount for the current vehicle speed, load and traction conditions.

The biggest bugger would be reliability. It has to be as simple as it can only be with some safety fallback and margin for error. This is way off my field of competence but if VanDerBrink needed 10 years to make DVC really work I wont bet it's a simple problem.

[Gunner]

I've seen body panels made by covering the frame with urethane foam panels, shaping them and then covering them with fiberglass. I know you said glass is heavy but that's at least an option.

[rogwild]

Yes, I want two doors - left and right door, I hate asymetry :D

Why have TWO, if it DOUBLES the expense, complexity, build time, etc. Make it simple and FUNCTIONAL. Hating 'asymetry' is one thing; but I'll bet that you don't have an extra 'gas pedal' on the left side of the floor, or an extra 'ignition key' on the left side of the steering column. Shoot, if the roof 'hinged', we wouldn't even need doors. My concept is to make this project a simple, basic vehicle that would be fairly easy to assemble from available parts or easy ones to have manufactured. If someone wants a folding, power door that 'disappears' into the floor, then they can MODIFY the basic design to accommodate their needs.

[Derwin]

Why have TWO, if it DOUBLES the expense, complexity, build time, etc. Make it simple and FUNCTIONAL.

I have to agree with rog on this one. Simplicity is key in regards to this "home-made" project.

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

I think this is what your referencing Gunner.
How to Work With fiberglass Over Urethane Foam (http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.htm)
Robert Q. Riley is known for his kit cars and here is an article on basically sculpting a foam body and then making a fiberglass shell out of the structure.

But yea I agree it would be great to have vacuform panels like slowblast desires and Persu is pursuing. But coming up with the forms, blanks and machining for a garage project is a somewhat daunting task..

And on another front - I agree with using KISS.

[Jack Willard]

Vacu-formed body panels are not too difficult to achieve. As was done for the Persu Hybrid panels, a wooden positive mold for each piece is machined using a CNC machine. The body panels are then vacuformed over the mold using heated ABS plastic sheet, and then band saw trimmed to the proper edges. Yes, the CNC machined mold pieces do cost a bit, but using wood makes them easier and less expensive. Production run parts for a full commercial vehicle would use metal molds, which are MUCH more expensive. I know. I've had two of them made for a product I used to make and sell.

[rogwild]

Would it be possible to 'combine' the two and skip the expense of the CNC machine. What I'm thinking is use the foam mold process to make the heavy fiberglass body panel, then use the fiberglass panel (instead of a CNC'd wood or metal panel) to produce a final lightweight vacu-formed piece. Just thinking out loud, not sure of the 'mechanics' of the process.

[Hoosier]

If, by some freak of an accident, you end up on your side with door down, you're stuck. Unless a hammer is included as standard equipment to shatter the glass for an escape route. =y:

[Jack Willard]

Yes you can. That can make a negative fiberglass mold. Then you suck the heated ABS sheet into the fiberglass mold, creating a panel the same shape and size as your original foam mold. Or, you could fiberglass coat the foam mold and leave it on, to then be a firm positive mold. Either way, the mold just has to be firm and resist the heat from the ABS sheet. Depending on the shape and size of the finished panel, you may need to spray-on a mold release compound so the parts will separate after it has cooled and become firm.

[wireman]

You are quite correct Jack, that is a cheap, efficient, and easily adaptable way to produce the panels. I hope that we may somehow manage to get your afterburner on this thing too! At least in those states in which they would be allowed. Speaking of afterburners, SlowBlast, I think you,re firing on all of 'em. A lot of the stuff in your last post parallels my design thoughts. I am also a fan of fly-by-wire, but I have a slightly different take on the design. I am running out of time on this public library machine, so more on this later!

[rogwild]

If, by some freak of an accident, you end up on your side with door down, you're stuck. Unless a hammer is included as standard equipment to shatter the glass for an escape route. =y:
That is why the Venture 1 and probably the Persu Hybrid also had a removable skylight, and WINDOWS that could be used for emergency egress. Lets not go 'overboard', I guess someone could come up with a scenario where a 'Floor mounted Escape Hatch' or an 'Ejection Seat' would be helpful.
Besides an 'Escape Hammer' and seatbelt cutter is only a $20 item that I keep in my vehicles anyway.
If you want TWO doors on your vehicle, then just take the ONE DOOR plans, 'mirror them' and put another door on the other side. Don't make everyone have the extra expense and work of a door that they don't need or want.

[Derwin]

LOL! This argument about the 1-door vs. 2 door design seems vaguely familiar! I recall entire threads over at the old company forum where people would argue back and forth about this.

Actually, I'm kind of getting sentimental about this. It causes me to yearn for the days when the company forum was up. :eek: Well, on second thought....

Derwin

[Hoosier]

That is why the Venture 1 and probably the Persu Hybrid also had a removable skylight, and WINDOWS that could be used for emergency egress. Lets not go 'overboard', I guess someone could come up with a scenario where a 'Floor mounted Escape Hatch' or an 'Ejection Seat' would be helpful.
Besides an 'Escape Hammer' and seatbelt cutter is only a $20 item that I keep in my vehicles anyway.
If you want TWO doors on your vehicle, then just take the ONE DOOR plans, 'mirror them' and put another door on the other side. Don't make everyone have the extra expense and work of a door that they don't need or want.

My hammer comment was kind of tongue in cheek. Beyond that, I was just throwing my 2 cents into the discussion. The very scenario I mentioned actually happened to my teenaged daughter about 3 weeks ago. She ended up with her car being on it's side, driver side door down in a fairly deep ditch. Obviously, exiting via the driver door wasn't an option. But beyond the safety of it, I would think that convenience should be a consideration too.

But hey, you guys are the brainiacs here. I fully recognize that. I was just hoping to maybe bring in some added perspective.

Carry on. 2thumb:up

[rogwild]

Hey Hoosier, ALL comments and ideas are welcome, and I agree that TWO doors would be more 'practical' and 'standard' for a PRODUCTION vehicle .
Like Derwin said, DOORS were a major discussion topic on the 'company forum' (now defunct) and I'm not sure that PM has made a FINAL decision. The 1 or 1.5 or 2 doors talk will probably continue, as will the 'TYPE' of door; Standard, Gull Wing, Scissor, Lambo, Folding, etc.
For this PROJECT, I just think it should be as SIMPLE as possible to start (I could even live with NO DOOR, if you could get in and out easily). Later, or in a separate sub-forum we can discuss different 'door options'.

[rogwild]

Here is a guy that seems able to make ANYTHING:
http://highmileagetrikes.blogspot.com/index.html#2751312040868354776
Check out his 'High Mileage Trike'; it doesn't 'tilt', but maybe some ideas we can use.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H0LKKun8j7I/R56_w8iA6oI/AAAAAAAAAhU/YF4HLjE_8Bw/s400/100_0455.JPG
There is also a lot of discussion and 'polls' on type of 'Cabin Scooter' would you want. Check out the messages on "OCSC":
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/CabinScooters/messages
Should spur some ideas and discussion. Looks like they are planing to also do an 'Open Source Project'; except a 'non-tilter'. Maybe some of their ideas/work could also help us.

[Gunner]

One good thing about it. If someone manages to make frames and someone manages to make body panels that fit it then maybe the rest of us can just purchase these items from them. I think I'd like to fit a Hayabusa engine in mine. :)

[Derwin]

Here is a guy that seems able to make ANYTHING:
http://highmileagetrikes.blogspot.com/index.html#2751312040868354776
Check out his 'High Mileage Trike'; it doesn't 'tilt', but maybe some ideas we can use.

Very nice find, rog! Did it say on the site if he ever got that thing made legal for the road? I know he said he wanted to create something to commute back and forth with, but I was wondering if it ever got licensed. At any rate, it's pretty good.

What about deciding on whether we want to move forward with a 2 up front and one back design, or the 1 up front and 2 back design? This would be a major factor in everything that follows I would think.

Derwin

[JoeU]

I would think it would make a big difference whether it is 2F1R or 1F2R. The first would be a Dagne offshoot with tilting suspension and the latter would be a Persue offshoot. At least that is the way I would interpret it.du:n:n:o(

[wireman]

Yea Derwin. Herewith my spec. choices.

1F2R
Electric drive. Range: 50 mi. (plug in/battery only) or, 100 mi. minimum (series hybrid).
Seating: 2 inline.
A/c (I live in Texas)!
Body: General wedge shape similar to PH/Clever.

A question for you site mods: Could you set up a poll link where we can tabulate and see the general trends?

[Derwin]

A question for you site mods: Could you set up a poll link where we can tabulate and see the general trends?

My personal preference would be the 1Front/2Back design also.

Please post what questions we should put up in polls, and we can get them up for people to express their opinions.

Derwin

[cearlnot]

My vote is for a 2F1R. I worry about all that weight being on one front tire.
I have an electric/manual tilt system design that works best with a tilting front suspension.
I say “I” because I haven’t seen one like it “yet”
I’ll try to explain but it’s not easy.
The tilt system consist of a normal steering system with a steering box (not a rack,) a linear actuator mounted on the steering drag link (front/rear orientation) and two tie rods that are attached to each end of the actuator slide. One tie rod hooks to the steering and the other to the tilting suspension.
At low speeds the steering tie rod is in the normal position near the end of the draglink. The tilt tie rod is aligned with the steering box output shaft. Turning the steering wheel provides normal steering and no tilt.
As speed increases the actuator starts moving the tie rod. The steering tie rod moves towards the steering box output shaft reducing steering output. The tilt tie rod moves away from the steering box output shaft increasing tilt output. The faster you drive the less steering and more tilt you have.
Electronics to move the actuator can be as complicated or simple as you want. I believe the speedometer and the steering wheel are the only input this system needs.
Earl

[TazmanianKoala]

My vote is for a 2F1R. I worry about all that weight being on one front tire.
I have an electric/manual tilt system design that works best with a tilting front suspension.


This seems a good choice to me. At least I can understand the basic principle of how it's working.
Although I personally like the 1F2R setup like the Carver has, I definitely see a lot of advantages of the 2F1R design. One of the most obvious is braking power.
If "we" can manage a slim design like the Dagne (http://www.revolutionmotors.biz/revolution/prototype.html), with your advanced tilting mechanism, there are certainly possibilities.

[rogwild]

I too like the 'streamlined' look (except where Carver 'messed' up the look with its 'nose') of the 1F2R 'Delta' vehicles. More aerodynamic and 'aircraft looking', but as mentioned earlier, since we want a "TILTER", the tilt mechanism and control will be the major determining factor. It seems that Carver and Clever (had some 'software' challenges with their computer control system) are the major ones to tackle this design.

The 2F1R 'Tadpole' design does have some of the benefits that TK mentioned, but their problem is also combining the front end design to work (and look good) without the front wheels and the body interfering with each other, or making the wheels too far apart (ala' Aptera). It seems like the Dagne, has not 'solved' this yet either, as they have not released any drawings of their front end design.

Ideas????? Maybe 'cearlnot's idea can be translated to a 1F2R design by using 'electronics' instead of a mechanical linkage. Shoot, perhaps it could even have ALL THREE wheels tilt.

[TazmanianKoala]

Rog
The 1F2R will tilt the front wheel by design. That's how we all want it.
But then the back wheels. So far all the designs (Carver, Persu, Clever) have rigid wheels on an engine pod.
Tilting the complete body (think like a reverse Dagne) would involve a complete redesign of the idea. That surely would be revolutionary.
Whether the tilting is mechanical or electronically controlled would be another issue.

As for me, I like the 'aircraft looking' design more than the tadpole design.
The Carver with a better nose design and a completely reworked body and engine is a nice start.

[WarpedOne]

That surely would be revolutionary.
Not really, there were such vehicles made before.
It all comes down to design decisions and trade-offs.
Having all three wheels tilting means they all have to be round i.e. less rubber on the road. Less rubber means less grip.

Carver has more than 2/3 of all weight on the rear axis. With round motorcycle tires performance would suffer.

[RAN]

While I think the 1F2R "looks" better, I have to go with the 2F1R for better stability and braking. If the aesthetics have to suffer a little, so be it. It will still be better looking than 80% of the vehicles on the road. thu:mbs:up:22

[WarpedOne]

How much is this better stability of 2F1R over 1F2R design based on facts and how much on gut feeling? Don't forget we are talking about a vehicle that tilts.


t will still be better looking than 80% of the vehicles on the road
This doesn't come automatically. We need a good designer.

[wireman]

Hey Warped and RAN, don't know if i'm "good", but I have studied in this area. The basic formula for stability and correct braking in the 1f2r config is that: "When the vehicle is at speed, the weight distribution should be 67/33 with the larger percentage at the rear, and the center of gravity as low as possible. Then, as braking occurs, some of the inertia shifts forward, the ratio becoming 60/40". You can go a bit higher to the front (another 5 %) but more than that would put a strain on the suspension of what is meant to be a lightweight vehicle. Hope that helps!

[rickb]

Hello! from a new club member. I have been an enthusiast of the Persu Hybrid with it's initial website debut as VentureOne. I have also appreciated all of the information your club members have provided over time. I also think this open source vector discussion has real merit with creative and positive use of time while waiting for any news from Persu. Thanks to all of you who spend the time managing the FTRC Website.

[rickb]

I'm sure you have discussed the LifeJet which is perhaps a good example of an aerodynamic tadpole design. It looks like a Persu Hybrid/Dagne offspring. Check it out at http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-1997-Mercedes-Benz-F-300-Life-Jet-Concept.htm

[WarpedOne]

You're link doesn't work. Let try mine (http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-1997-Mercedes-Benz-F-300-Life-Jet-Concept.htm) :)
That design might be aerodynamic, but it looks horrible. Wouldn't drive one even you gave it to me for free.
Interior is very nice though.

[Derwin]

http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=850&stc=1&d=1243170515


Heck, I really like that design, and I always have. Actually, I remember Ian even posted the interior picture of the cockpit on the company forum a long time ago.

But, yeah, I like it. Although I still like the 1F 2R design better.

Derwin

[Jack Willard]

Hello! from a new club member. I have been an enthusiast of the Persu Hybrid with it's initial website debut as VentureOne. I have also appreciated all of the information your club members have provided over time. I also think this open source vector discussion has real merit with creative and positive use of time while waiting for any news from Persu. Thanks to all of you who spend the time managing the FTRC Website.

wel;co;m;e101)) rickb! What took you so long to join us? Please jump right in and share your thoughts with us. =y:

[Derwin]

Hello! from a new club member. I have been an enthusiast of the Persu Hybrid with it's initial website debut as VentureOne. I have also appreciated all of the information your club members have provided over time. I also think this open source vector discussion has real merit with creative and positive use of time while waiting for any news from Persu. Thanks to all of you who spend the time managing the FTRC Website.


I second that! Welcome to the club, Rick! wel;co;m;e101))

I'm glad you finally decided to join us.

And thank you for the very nice compliments. Your very considerate, and I'm sure all of the admins appreciate your kind words.

Derwin

[rogwild]

In order to make this 'Project' usable to the most people, I think in addition to keeping it; "KISS", we should also keep it 'inexpensive' (use 'recycled' or less expensive components) and 'light-weight' (without getting into the 'exotics' like titanium and carbon fiber). Another factor to make it 'appealing' to as many as possible; it should be "modular and 'modifiable'. That way if someone wants more 'rear passenger room' or storage, they can add a foot or two to the frame, or if they want to replace an economical engine (150-250cc) with a performance motorcycle engine, or a 'green' electric motor,.....it should be an 'easy' swap.

To get some 'ideas'; check out some of the over 90+ photo albums from the "Cabin Scooters" list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CabinScooters/photos/album/0/list

[Derwin]

Well, I just went over there and joined the group. Now I have to wait until they verify everything before accessing the group. Hopefully that won't take too long.

I agree with roger on the KISS moto, as well as keeping it inexpensive. If we really do pull this off, and come up with something that works, it would be best if it is extremely cheap, and something that can be modified.

Derwin

[rickb]

Thanks for the welcome. I will quietly observe more than post. Sorry about the link that's why I'm a Pilot in Training. Derwin, I like the 1F 2R better too. My only points were if Cearlnot already has an electric tilt system design that works with a tilting front suspension, a 2F 1R design is safer in terms of braking/stability while offering more power, and a creative CAD Designer could configure a more aerodynamic body style similar to the Persu Hybrid or MB 300 Life Jet (Dagne is just alittle odd looking for me but would buy one) Then the 2F 1R sounds like a more logical approach for a kit builder project. Keep in mind that is Old Geezer from South Dakota Logic and I could be wrong. I bet WarpedOne would take a free MB LifeJet because of the nice interior design, the pop off top, not to mention the two doors. The You Tube videos of that vehicle makes it look like the fun-fly-the-road-vehilce we all look forward to driving sooner than later.

[TazmanianKoala]

Well, the Dagne has a rolling (and tilting) chassis.
No actual bodywork, but the concept of 2F1R seems to operate.:burning:rubber:
I still hope they get that damn thing rolling further and will present some bodywork soon.
On their site there is a picture of a completely knocked down Dagne.
http://www.revolutionmotors.biz/revolution/images/pictures/Production.gif

When I look at this, it really looks simple to build.
Sadly enough, theory and practice do not match.
Even with all these parts it still will be a hell of a job to build.
And then we will still have to find the body panels. Also some minor details like doors and electric and electronic parts are missing.:confused:

[Derwin]

I'm a big fan of the Dagne vehicle. But I think they are in a financial crunch, and it's going to take somebody with some deep pockets to finance them and get that thing to market. My money is on the Persu Hybrid reaching the marketplace before the Dagne.

But, hey, whoever gets there first has my money! Although, to be honest, I would stay faithful to Persu and buy their vehicle when it eventially comes out.

[rogwild]

I just posted a message on the "Cabin Scooter" Forum, and invited them to join our "Open Source TILTING Project". Hopefully we will see some new members that will bring some new ideas and expertise to our PROJECT. Perhaps I'll even invite some of the "Tilting" group (more a theoretical group, on tilting machines) to contribute also.

[Gunner]

Great idea, rogwild, we might get someone in here that has some tilt mechanism already thought out.

[tugboatwilly]

So many Ideas and so little time. For thoes accross the pond, I am sure you are aware of the yanks "Hot Rod" history? We seem to see a need and at that point we all are from Missouri and have to prove an Idea won't work.
Rog and I went through the 1.5 door thingy pretty well and some of his origional drawings are old geezer fodder that I lust after still.
I will never understand why Benz didn't go into production. But then I can't see the logic of shuttting down auto plants instead of just replacing ICE power with serial hybreds and putting them out the door. So what if you never see the buyer again, you are shutting your doors anyway why not stick it to your big oil board of director that is pushing Hummers?
Do you think they are just doing it for the bail out billions and have no guts to defy big oil?

[rogwild]

Here are some links (from the Cabin Scooter Yahoo group) that might provide some ideas:

Building an Ultra Light-Weight Car, Part 1
An incredible way of producing your own vehicle
by Julian Edgar
http://www.autospeed.com/A_110989/hDg34uLtp_1/cms/article.html

Building an Ultra Light-Weight Car, Part 2
Forming a curved body without moulds or panel beating
by Julian Edgar
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110990/article.html

Building Ultra Light-Weight Tubular Frame Vehicles, Part 1
DIY building of very light vehicles from steel tube
by Julian Edgar
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_111161/article.html

Custom Bubble Canopies
Custom shaped clear canopies and windscreens
by Julian Edgar
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_111051/article.html

The Active Car
When the car reacts - rather than responds - to the way you drive it.
By Julian Edgar
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110905/article.html

Thanks to Ivo R. Montanha Junior for the links,

[Gunner]

Well, that's a big chunk of the work done right there. Way to go Rogwild. Hopefully we will see some designs to look at soon too.

[Jack Willard]

rogwild,

Those links are outstanding! A good read and easy to understand. What a great find! =y:

[wireman]

Absolutely outstanding Rog! And Gunner, yes designs are on the way!

[Gunner]

Good deal wireman, seems like we are starting to roll now.

[rogwild]

Wireman, looking forward to seeing what ideas you have. Thanks!

[rogwild]

Here is another 'photo history' of someone building a 'micro-car' from scratch:
http://www.microcar.org/gallery/v/myzer/

[wireman]

O.K. Guys,

I will try to get as much on here as I can about my design before this public library machine tosses me. My basic design is 1F2R, similar to PH. The preliminary drawings have it looking like a cross between an F-117/F-22. (Sorta funny, Slowblast said: "We're not building an F-22 here"). This is due to the body using R.Q. Riley's foam/fiberglass technique to build it. It is kinda panelized in this form, but can be smoothed and rounded easily by sanding or filing the foam, if you want the original to be sleeker. Myself, I like the panel look, because that way I don't have to get special glass done for the windshield. It can be flat plate, which you can have cut at any auto glass shop, or lexan if you don't want/need wipers. Then, once we get a prototype done, we can pull molds from the exterior for kits.

The frame that the body is mated to is a platform, not a cage, as the body will have it's own rigid structure/side impact/rollover protection. The frame is also (like PH) a two piece system, with the rear being an open floorplan allowing room for almost any size/type drivetrain you want.

As of now I have planned a straight motorcycle type fork for the front wheel, with a tandem swingarm at the lower end. This gives greater strength and less force applied than a single arm as is on the PH. It is also KISS.

[Derwin]

Wireman... Please feel free to send me any files that you may have. I know people who may possibly be able to make CAD drawings from them, which may be useful for this project.

Send any files to derwin@flytheroadclub.com

Derwin

[wireman]

Thanks Derwin,will do! It's going to be a bit though, because, as I mentioned to Slowblast earlier, my original frame was not TILT. I am rethinking it now, because everyone wants to fly the road. And I DO TOO!!

[rogwild]

Here is another 'homebuild' 3-wheel project that might provide some IDEAS:
http://www.rtconnect.net/~chris/
(links to photos and sketches, at bottom of page)

[ziggy951]

Two seater? 1 seat plus storage area? 1 seater cockpit only? 1 seater with a trunk? 1 seater modular?

What are we aiming for as far as initial design size and configuration?




Z

[rogwild]

I think the most 'popular' design would be a 2-seater (second seat for storage), but I think that the 'design' should be made so that it could be easily shortened to a 1-seater with some storage area behind the seat (over the rear wheel/wheels).

I would also think that it should be designed to be 'convertible' (if we don't come up with a cheap AC system), with some sort of 'take-along' folding top to provide weather protection if it rains while the 'hardtop' is back home.

[wireman]

Rog's got it right, Zig. All the previous discussions on the old Venture forum, and polls on FTRC show the most common preference to be 1+1. That is, driver/passenger (or storage), as long as the passenger DOES NOT have to be a midget or contorsionist to fit. After all, what got us to this point was the idea of a zippy, fun commuter, mainly for one person, but adaptable.

But, Rog, I'm not sure it is necessary to lengthen/shorten the frame, or that it would be desirable to do so. If you do, it will require a different wheel base width on whichever end the two wheels are, in order to maintain proper handling. My thought is that the overall width of the car is more important than the length, as long as the turning radius is tight. Then you have more parking room side-to-side.

[ziggy951]

Anyone have an opinion on the room each person should get? I am working on a design and so far I have 50 inches long for each person. I did a rough measurement of what it would take for me and it was around 50". Then I measured the interior of my car, its a coup, just a bit larger than a 2+2, and it came to about 87" or so.

I am working with the assumption that I may be in the front or rear so I want to have enough room in either place. I am 6'4".

Being tall has its perks but none of them have to do with transportation comfort. I am hoping that 100" of internal length will be enough. What do you guys think?

I am a bit worried that with 100" of internal space that the overall length will become a bit bulky. As of now its looking like 120-160" in total length.


Z

[ziggy951]

Just checked the Persu site. I guess the overall length of theirs is 140" so I guess I'm not that far off.


Z

[wireman]

Gawd Zig! I can see I'm gonna have trouble designing something that will fit you! Guess I can, though your butt will be scraping the pavement! Or you will be sitting in a vehicle nearly as high as a semi! Just kidding, (a bit).

[ziggy951]

52" tall by 50" long by 30" wide isnt all that bad. Maybe I'll only make enough room in the back for a car seat :)



Z

p.s. Wireman, ever used Rhinoceros?

[Gunner]

Now that's funny right there. :) Are you keeping in mind that most of the designs have the passenger semi-straddeling the driver?

[TazmanianKoala]

I opt for a full 2 seater. So driver and passenger get a full seat arrangement. This also means a really sleek design.
On the other hand: A full length 2 seater will cause technical difficulty to gain an acceptable turning radius. The front wheel will need to be able to turn in quite a sharp angle at low speeds for tight turning.

[ziggy951]

Now that's funny right there. :) Are you keeping in mind that most of the designs have the passenger semi-straddeling the driver?

Yeah not really comfortable at all. The Pursu is listed as 140" overall and I have about 100" dedicated just for personal space. This should be a bit more roomy. But that is also a problem. At which length does it make it too long and at which length does it make the back seat unusable by an adult?

I am taking a frame only approach. Really just a basic frame that has a basic shape. The body work will be what gives the machine real shape. I figure the previously mentioned methods of fiberglass over foam can really finish the design, and also allow people to really shape their own creations differently.


Z

[rogwild]

My suggestion to Venture (way back when) was to make the back seat comfortable for medium/small adults (sitting in a normal feet-on-the-floor) position; but to have the 'option' of a feet-around (straddle) arrangement for larger, long legged passengers (like on the Carver). This would mean a special front seat (narrow at the mid-to-bottom), or a slightly wider body, but it would also allow 'normal' passengers to 'stretch out' on longer drives.

[wireman]

Hey Ziggy! Nope never. P.S. What's that?

[MVRacing]

In the V1 IGES file we have, the measurement from the drivers toes to the passengers back is 68.5 inches.

[ziggy951]

Hey Ziggy! Nope never. P.S. What's that?

Its a relatively new 3D modeling program. Kinda like a cross between CAD, Sketchup, and 3DS. Really user friendly but has some really advanced stuff too. Its what I use.



Z

[Mark Tomlinson]

I opt for a full 2 seater. So driver and passenger get a full seat arrangement.
I'm with you on that, my mantra with the Venture One was that the "back seat" should be referred to as the "passenger seat". Some people liked to point out that the back seat of a 2 + 2 sports car is cramped, so what's the problem? The problem is that when I take my sweetheart for a ride in a sports car she sits in the passenger seat; I don't stuff her in the back seat.

We're talking about "tandem" seating here, which means the passenger seat is behind the driver instead of next to the driver. The distinction sounds subtle, but is significant.

[rogwild]

Perhaps many of these posts could be 'moved' to a sub-thread entitled SEATING to keep the discussion more focused.

I too like the 2-seater (or 1+1 arrangement), but think the 'plans' could have a 'caveat' that would show data for those that only want/need ONE seat (ie. X=Wheelbase Length - x" and Y=Dual Wheel Width - y"; could be used to 'modify' the standard KIT in order to build a single place vehicle with good stability.

A sample might be something like (for a 'non-tilter'):
http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/14131977/hr/1147966956/name/n_a

[rogwild]

Here is a link that may be helpful for those working on the dimensions of the driver/passenger compartment:
http://mreed.umtri.umich.edu/mreed/research_anthro.html
http://mreed.umtri.umich.edu/mreed/downloads/anthro/amvo/amvo_midmale_small.png

[ziggy951]

This is a rough of what I am working on.

http://www.conifermountainhomes.com/sitebuilder/images/C2-600x406.jpg

http://www.conifermountainhomes.com/sitebuilder/images/C2All-600x491.jpg

http://www.conifermountainhomes.com/sitebuilder/images/C2Top-179x600.jpg


Z

[ziggy951]

My scaling is still a bit off but its getting there. As of now from the front drivers foot, estimated distance of a flat foot, to the top of the back of the pasenger's seat is 85 inches. A bit more tweeking and I hope to have the scale corrected. Anyhow, just shooting out my basic plan for some criticism, preferably the constructive kind ;)



Z

[TazmanianKoala]

Ziggy
You are quite near of what I'm thinking of. Enough room for both occupants.
Plus your design leaves enough room for all the technical components to hide. Power module in the back, 1 front wheel. cool:thu:mb1
Really nice basic idea =y:, this is the way to start!

[WarpedOne]

Unfortunately, way to big to work.

Thats Rhinocerost that you're using there?
I'm looking for a tool that works under linux. Unfortunately not much of a choice ...

[JoeU]

If the front seat was raised slightly to allow the rear passengers feet to go below it, that might shorten up the length somewhat.

[Gunner]

Wow! Great job Ziggy. That's outstanding.

[Gunner]

In my car the seat has room underneath so that the rear passenger's feet can go underneath. People don't sit with their feet turned up. So I think you can put them to where there is only about 8 inches from their knees to the back of the front seat.

[ziggy951]

Started an independent thread about my build.

http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1720


Z

[rogwild]

Here is another link with LOTS of pictures of different vehicles that might give some ideas:
http://www.detalidon.com/Media/Presentation1/Presentation_Contents.htm
http://www.detalidon.com/Media/Presentation1/.%5Cimages%5C121.jpg

[slowblast]

Raising the back seat also give the seater better view. I hate it when the guy behing me is ralphing on the plane...
Sorry, I don't see a tilter working with side by side... cause I'm a skinny butt and my girl isn't. I hate listing, going in circles...

[slowblast]

Wow I’m impressed Ziggy… looks good!
The motor thing… As I stated in my first post I was thinking of using a MC engine… with an ATV Suspension in the drive module… To that end I’ve spent quite a while (in silence) looking at options… I’ve always been impressed with Honda’s V4s. aka VF750 V45. 1. The bottom end torque and 2. It’s a shafty (the early yrs) & 3. They don’t shake like the big V twins… So I guess its natural that I looking at using this little mill.. I would really like to go EV but the battery issues are preventive. However using a shaft drive, would make it simpler to change over or do an alt EV design.
As for the rear suspension I’ve been looking at Yamaha’s Rhino. A sweet little package, light but rock tough. I was busy looking at the rear end parts… And then for some reason I got looking at the front differential, which started a really crazy idea…
Why not use the Rhino 4x4 front end drive parts as rear end steering to augment the front steering at slow speeds? Since swinging the front tire around sharp corners at low speeds/low tilt may be limited due to the interference with the front control arm. It might save critical work on the front-end design. There are some issues with the Rhino differentials that I need to resolve (like what is their ratio) so I’m, off to the local Yamaha dealer… See if they’ll push a new Rhino while I count the revolutions of the drive shaft. Seems all they can tell me is, it has a top speed of ~40 Mph?

[Gunner]

2thumb:upYou've got some great ideas Slowblast. You're on a roll.
http://www.flytheroadclub.com/forums/images/smilies/a18.gif

[rogwild]

Here is an article and 33 photos of sketches and prototype photos of a 4-Wheel Tilting Motorcycle. Perhaps some of the ideas can be 'scaled-up' to help on our project.
http://www.gizmag.com/4mc-four-wheel-tilting-motorcycle/11939/
http://www.gizmag.com/pictures/gallery/11939_12060910415.JPG

[slowblast]

Anybody been down to take long hard look at a Ski-do on wheels, aka, (Can-Am Spyder)?

I was on my way to the local Yamaha dealer to push a Rhino around the lot. Saw this thing sitting out front of the local Suzuki/Ski-do dealer. Decided I needed to go get touchy feely with this thing. Not that I was at all impressed walking up to it… Being a die hard skier, any thing, that in anyway, resembles a Sled, is automatically viewed as an object of mechanical absurdity. A Sled’s has only one true function in life… fetch groceries (whale blubber), +200 miles north of the Artic Circle (and then only because of the high price of dog food).

Anyway… When I got down close, to look at the front hub and knuckle… I about lost it! There, sitting in the center line of the Tire, above and below the knuckle were two a arm ball joints…As I sat there thinking, Gee, in my long tired life, I’ve never seen this kind of geometry at the end of any A-Arm. I wondered for a just moment, did Ski-do discover a new steering dynamic law? Only to here my self say, Hay wake up, this is just a Sled! Built by a Sled maker! What the ___ could they know about steering dynamics of a wheel? Guess that’s why they need a stability augmentation system to keep the inside front tire on the ground on a hard lean.. (Car-n-Driver)

As I’m sitting there looking (in total disbelief) at a Knuckle setup that has zero Castor, zero Camber and (most importantly) a Zero Pivot Radius. A big smile came on my across my face! Damn here it is! A knuckle setup, with one important application: The 1 in 1F2R , Even the setup on the (large) disk brake looked workable…

Even now I have a hard time believing I saw this thing… Then I got really close, seems the boys at Ski-do has some really strange ideas on spindles and hubs too… Their spindle is bolted to, an rotates with the wheel, and the cone bearing is in the big round hub looking hole in the center of the knuckle.. I guess the long nights watching auroras up in the frozen north gets a person thinking a little funny.
So is this it? All the major parts are found off the shelf? Well maybe, I was so dumb founded, that I forgot to go over to the Yamaha dealer and test push the Rhino.

[rogwild]

Seems like someone 'r hart', over on the 'Tilting' group had the same Idea I had:

Here's a thought on topic: Get Jay Leno interested in tilters. Start by somehow getting him to view the top gear video on the Carver. Perhaps moving through the Persumobility/ hybrid development. Thing is Leno has the funds, IS a certified "car guy", and has huge visibility/platform for interesting motorized vehicles. For example a local electric motorcycle company product was featured on one of his videos: Jay Leno's Garage. Plus, I've read the Persumobility/Venture Vehicles outfit resides in Los Angeles, where Jay Leno lives. Also has Leno seen Nick Shotter's videos? Or does Leno know about the GM Lean Machine?
Maybe this is the stimulus that PM and others need to get more visibility and funding support. How about it Persu Mobility; have 'your people' contacted, 'his people'??

[RAN]

What are they going to show him? That little animation vid? Why not show him the new Star Trek movie and get him interested in starships?

[rogwild]

Well 'hopefully' their Carver One is still OPERATIONAL:burning:rubber:, and the 'Top Gear' video is nice. Besides 'some' have said that just because PM has NOT SAID that their Prototype is not operational, does not 'mean' that they DO NOT HAVE ONE ALREADY!:confused:
Trying to be optimistic and enthusiastic!2thumb:up
They could even use the 'stealthy indirect method', by finding out what times Jay arrived at work, and what route he usually drives; then plan a few 'accidential' meetings of the Carver One (with a PERSU-MOBILITY. COM graphic) along the same roads to get his 'interest up', so that HE would initiate the CONTACT!
Although if he did buy a Carver One, he might have trouble finding a 'local' Carver Authorized Repair Shop to keep it running.:(

[willk]

Jay built a jet car. I don't think repairs are ever going to be a problem for him

[rogwild]

Jay built a jet car. I don't think repairs are ever going to be a problem for him
Yep, just 'kidding'.....if he couldn't fix it himself, he could get his mechanic 'factory trained' or fly in technicians from Holland. I'd just like to get his 'reactions' to this type of 'tilting' vehicle since he has so many cars and motorcycles. Seems like this would be the "Best of Both Worlds"......except maybe for the JET ENGINE!:)

[wireman]

Too true, Rog! And with the jet engine on board Jack W. would have his AFTERBURNER!

[Jack Willard]

Too true, Rog! And with the jet engine on board Jack W. would have his AFTERBURNER!

Afterburner? AFTERBURNER? AFTERBURNER? YES! I could get in front of that!

[rogwild]

Here are the 'efforts' so far, of the 'Cabin Scooter' Yahoo Group on their 'Open Source' 2F1R 'non-tilting' Project. They use the FREE download program, Google Sketchup, so that everyone can view the drawings and 'play' with them:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=433a4871ce805b5cbae3d599feddd51e
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/download?mid=433a4871ce805b5cbae3d599feddd51e&rtyp=lt&ctyp=other&ts=1245304582000

[Gunner]

=y:Cool, good job. Now let's see a leaner.2thumb:up

[rickb]

Hopefully somebody has the talent to play with that image enough to make it look more like a tamer Liion. The P. Liion is about the only 2F1R configuration that got my heart pounding. A vehicle design that that looks like an animal is somewhat extreme and needs to me simplified. But I would buy it as is if avaiable.

[Gunner]

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/download?mid=536eb694ecfa2a36aa8ee930afa0ad31&rtyp=lt&ctyp=other&ts=1202486321000This isn't bad, maybe someone could modify the 1F2R version of this.

[slowblast]

Can't quite figure out why they used a VW front end? They may be great for Dune bugs... The Mustang II front ends works really well on street kits and customs. Part are cheep with mutipule grade setups, and there is lot of design info online for setting them up on just about any type frame... Seem if I was building a 2F1R, that the way I would want to go.

[mariner13]

Can't quite figure out why they used a VW front end? They may be great for Dune bugs... The Mustang II front ends works really well on street kits and customs. Part are cheep with mutipule grade setups, and there is lot of design info online for setting them up on just about any type frame... Seem if I was building a 2F1R, that the way I would want to go.
VW front ends are simple to use and to mount. Available anywhere and often free =y:with minimal scrounging abilities. I have given away a few myself, over the last 30 years. o:o:p:s12If you do need to buy one; it usually is a fairly short trip to a junk yard that has one. :) Keep on Trikin'! :burning:rubber::taz:dr:ive1)

[ziggy951]

I bet weight has something to do with it as well.


Z