DVC Failure reports censored!

[NortonF1]

The DVC-Failure reports have been taken off from the Carver-tuning.nl forum!

According to email of the admin of that forum:


It appears that the problem is resolved, if all the engine updates are applied the problem is
gone. In cooperation with Carver I have removed the subject as it was not current and valid
information.

Carver has contacted the people involved and all parties agreed on removing the thread

I have NEVER been contacted and no modification has been applied to my Carver One!

Regards Hans

PS: This link still works:http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/tilting/message/12737

PPS: I hope my thread survives!

[Derwin]

I find this to be very serious. Can you please contact them (the forum owners) PERSONALLY and tell them of your situation. If you had this problem, and have never been contacted as they say, then you have to make that known.

You don't have to worry about your thread HERE surviving. We will keep it up.

Please keep us updated on this situation.

Derwin

[NortonF1]

Derwin,

I have had the failure almost one year ago and they haven´t reacted until today, as You know I am sueing them anyway due to the number of problems I am having with the vehicle, from a heavily leaking roof to bad radio reception, non functioning brakes in wet wheather conditions and so on!

Thanks for keeping the discussion alive, I think this is a VERY important safety issue!

[Derwin]

Hans,

You should go over to that other forum and contact the owner immediately. Then you need to simply start another thread about this issue again, and again, and again, until your concerns are addressed.

Forums should be about the open discussion of things that are related to the pertinent subject matter. If that is a forum about the Carver, then I don't see ANY reason in God's green earth why you should not be able to discuss such an important issue like this. UNLESS..... The forum is owned by Carver, or the owner of the forum is a friend of people at the Carver company. Then I can see that they want to "cover up" this issue.

Derwin

[Derwin]

I just received a personal message from Hans in Germany, and I think this sheds a great deal of light on WHY they took the thread down in the Carver forum. Here's the message...


Hi Derwin,

the owner of the Carver-tuning.nl forum makes sport exhaust and tuning kits for the Carver One which he sells through carver dealears.

I think Carver put pressure on him to take the reports off the forum.

There is a lot of money involved if for example the type certificate would be revoked!

Regards Hans

PS: Feel free to qote me in the forum if You like!


All I can say is that I HOPE we never have that problem with THIS forum. I know we have signed a contract with Persu that can be revoked at any time, but I want everybody to know that I will NOT compromise this forum just to save a contract.

It just goes to show....When money is involved, all other things take second place. That's obviously what is happening at the other forum.

I would advice Hans to start A NEW Carver forum where ALL things can be discussed openly, without the company having veto power over certain subjects.

Derwin

[AZEqualizer]

... I am sueing them anyway due to the number of problems I am having with the vehicle...

If Carver is in litigation with you they have the right to keep any information in regards to the litigation off of public forums until the courts make a determination and finalize the litigation issues. The courts could also issue a cease and desist to keep things out of the public eye which could prejudice the case ... until the case is resolved.

[rogwild]

If Carver is in litigation with you they have the right to keep any information in regards to the litigation off of public forums until the courts make a determination and finalize the litigation issues. The courts could also issue a cease and desist to keep things out of the public eye which could prejudice the case ... until the case is resolved.

Interesting 'concept'. I would agree about the 'specifics' of 'that particular case'; but are you saying that another individual with a similar vehicle and a similar problem in a different town, state or country could no longer complain publicly about the problems they are having with THEIR vehicle? I'm no lawyer, but that really smells 'fishy' (ie. STINKS) to me.

What ever happened to 'Freedom of Speech'.....oh yeah, they're in Europe.

[Chuck]

I have NEVER been contacted and no modification has been applied to my Carver One!


What's your VIN? I ask because I'm wondering if earlier vehicles (like nzpeter's #35) have had the problem and later ones have had it resolved. Mine is #163 and I haven't had the problem yet (although I'm only about 3,000 km into enjoying it and have only driven a couple hundred km in pouring rain).

[NortonF1]

My VIN is 152.

I dont think that the problem with the DVC can be fixed in the given constructrion with a belt that can slip, I think there should at least be a toothed belt like in camshaft drives that cannot slip.

In my opinion this is a design fault and I have reported that to Carver Europe almost a year ago.

Regards Hans

[Derwin]

Interesting 'concept'. I would agree about the 'specifics' of 'that particular case'; but are you saying that another individual with a similar vehicle and a similar problem in a different town, state or country could no longer complain publicly about the problems they are having with THEIR vehicle? I'm no lawyer, but that really smells 'fishy' (ie. STINKS) to me.

I agree with rogwild on this one. I don't think Carver has ANY "right" to keep information off any forum (unless they own it, of course!), regardless of a pending lawsuit. That is up to a court to decide, not Carver. If the COURT issues a cease and desist order, then that's a different story. But the company itself has no right to tell a person not to talk about things.

Derwin

[Chuck]

I dont think that the problem with the DVC can be fixed in the given constructrion with a belt that can slip, I think there should at least be a toothed belt like in camshaft drives that cannot slip.

In my opinion this is a design fault and I have reported that to Carver Europe almost a year ago.

If you remember from the Netherlands forum, nzpeter already mentioned that his mechanic was firmly confident that the problem could be permanently resolved with an adjustment.

[Chuck]

The DVC-Failure reports have been taken off from the Carver-tuning.nl forum!

According to email of the admin of that forum:



I have NEVER been contacted and no modification has been applied to my Carver One!

Regards Hans

PS: This link still works:http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/tilting/message/12737

PPS: I hope my thread survives!

It looks to me like they were referring to nzpeter, since it was his problem that originated the thread.

[Chuck]

I have had the failure almost one year ago and they haven´t reacted until today, as You know I am sueing them anyway due to the number of problems I am having with the vehicle, from a heavily leaking roof to bad radio reception, non functioning brakes in wet wheather conditions and so on!

I don't know if your experience is because you are dealing with the German sales reps or if you're dealing with the Carver company directly. Have you actually filed a suit or are you saying that you intend to do so? It would be interesting to know if this legal suit will target the German dealer or the Carver company.

In any case I can testify that, while visiting the country, Chris van den Brink took the time to sit down with me and personally guide me through the steps to perform a necessary update on the steering column. He also took the time to open up the front, side and engine covers to answer all of my questions and to provide me with tips regarding general maintenance. While we went through all this, he occasionally grumbled about this or that implementation and how it might have been better. I was surprised and sincerely encouraged by his openness.

Maybe you should contact Carver directly, if the German dealers are brushing you off.

[NortonF1]

In any case I can testify that, while visiting the country, Chris van den Brink took the time to sit down with me and personally guide me through the steps to perform a necessary update on the steering column.

What update of the steering clumn are You talking about?

I have not heard about any update on my Carver One except for some modifications on the electrical system due to bad earth connections which caused failures of the starter motor when the engine was warm.

[Chuck]

I agree with rogwild on this one. I don't think Carver has ANY "right" to keep information off any forum (unless they own it, of course!), regardless of a pending lawsuit. That is up to a court to decide, not Carver. If the COURT issues a cease and desist order, then that's a different story. But the company itself has no right to tell a person not to talk about things.

All we know is that they have asked the forum owner to remove the thread because nzpeter's problem is apparently resolved via existing engine updates. The forum owner claims that nzpeter agreed to this.

Hans insinuated that there may be a financial motive for the forum owner, but it seems obvious that nzpeter certainly has no such motive. I see no reason to doubt that nzpeter has been contacted and agreed that the thread could be removed.

I accept that the treatment received by Hans is a legitimate concern, but this was not the reason for the original thread. Hans' situation is a separate concern and it deserves its own thread. By grouping these two situations together, both issues have become clouded and this, in turn, has raised emotions unnecessarily.

[Derwin]

I accept that the treatment received by Hans is a legitimate concern, but this was not the reason for the original thread. Hans' situation is a separate concern and it deserves its own thread. By grouping these two situations together, both issues have become clouded and this, in turn, has raised emotions unnecessarily.

Well, if what Hans has said is true, then there is a big problem. Why shut a thread down at all if it is about a REAL problem? Even if that problem has been addressed, why not keep the thread up for all to learn, not only about the problem, but about the solution to the problem. I just don't understand that at all.

The only logical conclusion that I can make, is that there must have been pressure put on the forum owner from Carver to shut it down and remove it. And since the forum owner has a financial interest in selling parts for Carver, then that makes this look even more suspicious. No emotion here at all. Just a whole lot of logical thinking and logical conclusions.

Hopefully the forum owner will explain this better, and give us a good reason to believe differently.

Derwin

[Chuck]

I wasn't aware, btw, that nzpeter is a Carver dealer, so there actually is a hook there.

In the meantime, I've learned more from Hans about the engine update that is apparently in place, in later vehicles, to solve the specific DVC problem. I'll be checking at home tonight to see what version mine has.

Regarding removing the thread from the forum, I can understand why Carver would want to remove it if they believe that the legacy issues have since been resolved, but I don't think it was wise to do so. What would have been better is to openly engage the subject. This would have soothed concerns rather than excite suspicion.

Emotions and logic are not necessarily like oil and water. I'm just not convinced yet that this is truly some kind of deadly conspiracy.

[Derwin]

Regarding removing the thread from the forum, I can understand why Carver would want to remove it if they believe that the legacy issues have since been resolved, but I don't think it was wise to do so. What would have been better is to openly engage the subject. This would have soothed concerns rather than excite suspicion.

Sure, I can understand why Carver would want to do this. I guess the problem I have is that Carver actually gets to DECIDE when to remove a post or thread in a forum. I would think that this is a natural conflict of interest. A forum is supposed to be for the open discussion of things, but if Carver actually owns the forum, or has control over its content, then that's the problem I have. I would think one of you guys should start an INDEPENDENT forum where things can be discussed openly without fear of having threads removed.


Emotions and logic are not necessarily like oil and water. I'm just not convinced yet that this is truly some kind of deadly conspiracy.

Absolutely. A person can be emotional and logical at the same time. And I'm not too big on conspiracy theories either. But I do know the business mindset very well. And I think it's obvious that Carver was attempting to protect the image of their product in this case.

But I stand to be corrected.

Derwin

[Riko Kruit]

Dear all,

As the Sales Director of Carver Europe, I would prefer not to participate in this forum discussion. However since the discussion is not going in the right direction and Carver Europe is accused of covering up important technical information, I would like to make a statement.

PeterNZ is driving VIN035
This driver started the discussion on the carver-tuning forum and we got in contact with him, he is also representing Carver in New Zealand. After talking to our engineers Peter admitted to having forgotten to do a recall which we have sent out earlier to prevent the belt to turn. After he found out that the mistake was at his side, he asked the moderator to delete the discussion. Maybe it would have been better that he would have reacted and rectified the thread, but it was decided to just delete the discussion since it was not a DVC failure but a technical mistake by PeterNZ. After upgrading the engine supports (Recall RC-039) all problems will be solved.

So no censoring at all here.

Norton-F1 says he is driving VIN152
To my knowledge this Carver One had a bad accident, was a total-loss-damage and was rebuild by a non-Carver-authorised workshop.

Should you have any questions what so ever, please feel free to call me at any time during office hours on +31 78 618 30 66.

I would like to take this opportunity also to start a new thread tomorrow in which I will post some pictures of a recent driver day we organised in Holland. On this day 24 enthusiastic Carver drivers from Holland, Belgium and Germany attended and everybody was driving to their full satisfaction.

Carve'on!

Riko Kruit
Sales Director Carver Europe BV

[AZEqualizer]

Thanks for posting Mr. Kruit and you are always welcome to come and post on the FlyTheRoadClub site. We know that there are two sides to every story and appreciate viewpoints from all parties involved. We thank you for taking the time to post your side of the discussion. And we look forward to the pictures from your event.

[Jack Willard]

wel;co;m;e101)) Riko

Thanks for your participation.

We are interested in DVC for the obvious reason, since this technology will be used in the Persu Hybrid. I can hardly wait to start tilting! dr:ive1) Please continue your participation and encourage others from Carver to do the same. We would love to have all the Carver knowledge and experience possible, to help us envision our future with such a vehicle.

[Derwin]

...it was decided to just delete the discussion since it was not a DVC failure but a technical mistake by PeterNZ. After upgrading the engine supports (Recall RC-039) all problems will be solved.

Riko,

Good to hear from you again. I'm glad you finally decided to join our club, and get in on the conversation. It would have been better under different circumstances, though! But, anyway, welcome to the club! wel;co;m;e101))

I'm very happy to see that this was NOT a DVC problem. This is the kind of information that you should be putting out in forums IMMEDIATELY so that false information does not get into the public realm. Thank you for clearing this up for all of us.



Norton-F1 says he is driving VIN152
To my knowledge this Carver One had a bad accident, was a total-loss-damage and was rebuild by a non-Carver-authorised workshop.

I had completely forgotten about that! Actually, Hans posted pictures a long time ago of his vehicle after the accident. His problems surely cannot be blamed on the Carver company, but instead the damage done in the accident.

I'm really happy that you decided to join the club and clarify all of this. We invite you to come here and post some POSITIVE information about the Carver. We created a special forum just for the Carver, and your free to post ANYTHING that you desire there.

Again, Welcome!

Derwin

[NortonF1]

Norton-F1 says he is driving VIN152
To my knowledge this Carver One had a bad accident, was a total-loss-damage and was rebuild by a non-Carver-authorised workshop.

Riko Kruit
Sales Director Carver Europe BV

The pictures of the damage to my carver can be found in this forum.

My Carver One was rebuilt by a well-named body repair shop (<cite>www.hoell-und-motschmann.de</cite>) who does repair for Mercedes, Porsche and all other car makers, and the damage to my carver was, except for the damage to the engine frame, rather cosmetic.

Fact is that Carver - at first - refused to cooperate at all and could only be convinced by my Lawyer to deliver parts.

They are still refusing to provide Information and tools for proper wheel alignment and I am driving with a Carver one that doesnt run straight.

Most of the emails to Carver Germany have been copied to Rikko Kruit so Carver Europe has always been informed!

These are facts, folks otherwise I wouldnt dare to write it here!

[Derwin]

It seems this is a problem you are having with Carver responding to your concerns. I, for one, would appreciate it if you can keep us updated on any new developments.

Derwin

[carverconcept]

To make this clear: What I am reading here is the typical propaganda from Carver Europe and it doesn't explain the whole context. I can definitely confirm that this is NOT a personal issue between NortonF1 and Carver Europe due to the fact, that the problem existed already BEFORE Norton's accident. I also do have knowledge about other people (including myself) with the same issues. There is a serious construction problem affecting the power train and this is known for some time now.

Norton and me are trying to provide Carver with help & feedback for over two years now but unfortunately without any affect. Instead we had to deal with impassibilities like waiting for part deliveries for ages (even a screw can take up to 5 month) and there is no existing technology exchange.

On top Carver seems to be unable to create a professional network of workshops and branches within the different countries and this is the exact reason why we had to involve other parties. Until today there is still no reasonable partner in our region (there are at least 6 cars sold where I live) and in fact the local distributor doesn't want to cooperate at all. Even delivering a workshop handbook (payed of course) seems to be an impossible request for Carver Europe (most propable it doesn't exist).

We also do have serious evidence that Carver Europe is conflicting with the european group exemption regulation and our solicitors currently considering a prosecution of this company.

I wish this company would leave us any other choice.

We will keep you guys in the loop of course.

[Riko Kruit]

Dear all,

If anyone would like to hear the real story, please contact me by phone.
I do not want to get involved in this on a forum.

I can assure you that we have a proper network installed based on the sales done in a country/area. Also the technical department has all information available to service a Carver One.

However, due to the explicit tilting mechanism/system, any serious damage should be taken care of by an official Carver specialist.

A Mercedes is not a Carver, in fact there is no vehicle on this earth that has the DVC system inside, so with respect to all technicians in the world, just a few will have some experience on tilting vehicles.

Therefor any repairs, services or maintenance should be done by appointed Carver workshops.

I will leave this discussion now because I would like to concentrate on real issues.

Carve'on!
Riko

[Derwin]

DA Mercedes is not a Carver, in fact there is no vehicle on this earth that has the DVC system inside, so with respect to all technicians in the world, just a few will have some experience on tilting vehicles.

Therefor any repairs, services or maintenance should be done by appointed Carver workshops.


Makes a lot of sense to me. The Carver IS unlike ANY other vehicle on the planet. I know if I owned one, I wouldn't trust it to any mechanic unless they understood the DVC system.

Derwin

[Donald1800]

When I read the above "..statement of fact..", I immediately thought - "Does Carver have authorized repair shops available in all of the countries that they have distributors and sales?" If they do, then I have to agree that the repairs should be done there. However, in the absence of authorized repair shops IN THE CUSTOMER'S COUNTRY, then I expect full company cooperation in supplying all needed parts and technical assistance in getting repairs completed promptly. If this were PM within the USA, I would expect this as an absolute minimum company response should no authorized repair shop were available within the customers STATE.
Donald1800

[Chuck]

When I read the above "..statement of fact..", I immediately thought - "Does Carver have authorized repair shops available in all of the countries that they have distributors and sales?" If they do, then I have to agree that the repairs should be done there. However, in the absence of authorized repair shops IN THE CUSTOMER'S COUNTRY, then I expect full company cooperation in supplying all needed parts and technical assistance in getting repairs completed promptly. If this were PM within the USA, I would expect this as an absolute minimum company response should no authorized repair shop were available within the customers STATE.
Donald1800
I think that there are three dealers in Germany and I'm pretty sure that there are at least two authorized repair shops there. Uberherrn is one shop, where they actually manufacture the Carver One and the other place, as I understand it, is about 250 kilometers away from NortonF1's home.

There's no dealer or authorized repair shop in Austria yet, but I already knew and accepted that when I bought mine. Riko explained that equipment and an expert mechanic could be sent to a workshop of my choice if the need arose. He has already proactively worked with me to ensure that a decent repair shop would be available in my city.

[NortonF1]

Come on Rikko, tell us the whole story here, dont have the whole forum call You in the Netherlands!

Or call me finally and help me to get my Carver One get a wheel alignment, Harry S. refused again to give the tools and information to my favorite repair shop who did a really good job in fixing my accident damage considered to the "authorized" Carver dealer H.-P. W. who managed only to fix 10 out of 27 faults that my vehicle had from the beginning, and that took almost 4 weeeks!

[carverconcept]

Dear all,

If anyone would like to hear the real story, please contact me by phone.
I do not want to get involved in this on a forum.

I can assure you that we have a proper network installed based on the sales done in a country/area. Also the technical department has all information available to service a Carver One.

However, due to the explicit tilting mechanism/system, any serious damage should be taken care of by an official Carver specialist.

A Mercedes is not a Carver, in fact there is no vehicle on this earth that has the DVC system inside, so with respect to all technicians in the world, just a few will have some experience on tilting vehicles.

Therefor any repairs, services or maintenance should be done by appointed Carver workshops.

I will leave this discussion now because I would like to concentrate on real issues.

Carve'on!
Riko

I am not surprised so let's face it! There are good reasons why Riko steps off the Forum when the discussion hasn't even started. Instead let’s have some more comfortable subject about cool Carver One events. Invites went out to the ones not asking any problematic questions. Congratulations!

So let’s raise some questions anyway. I am looking forward to finally get an answer from the Marketing Director of Carver Europe who is also in charge of the part delivery as far as I know.

We are trying to get these answer's for more than a year now without any luck. Instead Riko Kruit is telling people his “real story”, except that publishing it in a forum must look like a confession. So let's better get this offline.

What are the exact delivery terms for the Carver One part delivery? Response times, ETA, guarantees regarding parts availability, etc


We do have evidence, that Carver refuses to deliver parts to members of the motor industry according to the European Group Exemption Regulation. How could this happen and what will be done to avoid this in the future? Delivering parts to the industry has got nothing to do with been a official carver workshop. This has been regulated in the EU (most propable similar to the US) and will be prosecuted otherwise.


Is Carver Europe aware of the fact that security issues with the DVC tilting system can result in loosing the operating license and what is Carver Europe exactly doing to avoid this? There hasn’t been any major recalls solving this issue according to my knowledge (and I am a Carver One owner too).

How comes that Carver Europe denies quality issues with their product even though there are clients experiencing issues, e.g. leaking roofs, no accurately fitting doors, rattling noises, etc . Due to the pricing Carver owners might feel a bit more sensitive than a Kia owner, don’t you think?


How comes that Carver Germany sold at least 50 cars but there are only two workshops in the whole of Germany able to fix them? Both workshops together have a headcount of two technicians doing all the work. And according to my sources half of the time they actually not able to work as they’re waiting for your part deliveries.


How comes that Carver Germany and Carver Europe denies to cooperate with a very professional workshop who was willing to cooperate until Carver started frustrating them by not providing any technical documentation rather than delivering any parts? I was personally involved in those negotiation so that this company can be an official Carver partner workshop but when it came to the paper work Carver Germany denied to provide contracts and further materials explaining that this workshop “doesn’t seem to be interested”. Now they’re not interested any more, that’s for sure.


Regards

Felix

[carverconcept]

I think that there are three dealers in Germany and I'm pretty sure that there are at least two authorized repair shops there. Uberherrn is one shop, where they actually manufacture the Carver One and the other place, as I understand it, is about 250 kilometers away from NortonF1's home.

There's no dealer or authorized repair shop in Austria yet, but I already knew and accepted that when I bought mine. Riko explained that equipment and an expert mechanic could be sent to a workshop of my choice if the need arose. He has already proactively worked with me to ensure that a decent repair shop would be available in my city.


Hi Chuck!

There are some authorized dealers in Germany but only two real workshops. The one workshop in Bavaria hasn't even started due to some renovation work. So there is seriously just one.

Überherrn is the production but not supposed to do the mending for us. So there is Mr. Wirtz left at Krefeld which is 250km away from Frankfurt (for US distances cool but people here are not used to that).

At the beginning I've brought my Carver to him to do some recalls and inspections but I wasn't extremely satisfied by the results so stopped doing it. Even Mr. Wirtz is not happy about the dutch guys due to their restrictive knowledge management and their disastrous part delivery.

One of my Carvers is grounded for more than 3 month due to the fact that no one is able to provide my workshop with the relevant technical informations to be able to fix the DVC system. It's not the first time this happened so I handed this over to my lawyer as well.

Thank god it's winter but considering the money I've already invested in this - VERY frustrating...

So I hope you guys understand my anger against this whole thing right now. It's a lof of fun of course, but Carver Europe and Carver Germany has no existing service strategy.

Of course it's all about interpretation and who is licensed and who isn't. But clients expect solutions and no bureauctratic excuses. I am sure you understand where I am going...

If anyone would actually try to seriously solve my problems I wouldn't write this here.



Regards

Felix

[Chuck]

So I hope you guys understand my anger against this whole thing right now.

I really do appreciate how frustrated you would be. The Carver's are expensive but they're wild fun. I don't look forward to the day I do something stupid and hurt the thing. That would be kind of depressing and I don't know how patient I could be in a situation with seemingly unnecessary delays and poor communication issues.

I have my own war stories, though, just regarding the months of efforts expended on purchasing my Carver One from the Italian dealer and getting the Austrian registration tags. ;) You don't know true bureaucracy until you face down both the Italian and the Austrian bureaucrats and you don't know true diplomacy and patience until you try to get these folks to communicate on something so new and strange!

As I explained to Hans on the phone, my expectations were set a lot lower because I knew this was a brand new product and things are just getting started. It's like being a pioneer. Later, when we've been shot full of arrows and buried, the settlers will move in and take over with their persu hybrids, etc. :)

That's the reason for my signature line!

I really love my Carver One. It's worth all the struggles, waiting and effort.

[Jack Willard]

It's like being a pioneer. Later, when we've been shot full of arrows and buried, the settlers will move in and take over with their persu hybrids, etc. :)

Oh wow! r:o:f:l:2:2:1 I really like that viewpoint! 2thumb:up

Yep, I settled out West and got me a Persu Hybrid. Them were the days...

[carverconcept]

The pioneers get the arrows and the settlers get the land! soooo true! We will keep you in the loop about any development. Won't be my last post ;-)

[NortonF1]

Dear all,

However, due to the explicit tilting mechanism/system, any serious damage should be taken care of by an official Carver specialist.

A Mercedes is not a Carver, in fact there is no vehicle on this earth that has the DVC system inside, so with respect to all technicians in the world, just a few will have some experience on tilting vehicles.

Therefor any repairs, services or maintenance should be done by appointed Carver workshops.



A Carver is not a Mercedes, thats true, but all screws on a carver open when You turn left and get fastened again by turning to the right, and my Carver One had nothing broken or malfunctioning on the DVC-System, it was put upright after the accident and even completed a full circuit on the Nürburgring Nordschleife (about 22km) on own power and still tilting!

It was taken completely apart by a fully qualified mechanic and he said afterwards that it was not too difficult at all, the engine frame and some parts of the rear suspension were replaced, the bodywork repaired and then put together again, and everything is functioning (even better) as before except that it needs a complete alignment together with the neccessary adjustment of the DVC System, and I am waiting for about 12 weeks now for proposals from Carver Germany or Europe when and where that can be accomplished.

Do You know that Riko or not?

Rgards Hans

[shooter]

I have had my Carver since April and it has had a number of things done to it which were official recall items. In the UK, the importer/distributor went out of business without a service network in place.

As I have several other vehicles that are hand made in small numbers, I already appreciate that there will always be glitches/ocasional build quality/fitment issues compared to a mass produce by computer controlled machinery vehicles. Therefore, I am a lot more ambivolent about my Carver. Yes it can be frustrating waiting for parts but I guess we should expect that given that the wait time from order to build was almost 2 years.

Anyway, as there was no official servicing network in the UK I spoke to my Morgan garage, www.rtcc.co.uk (http://www.rtcc.co.uk) to see if they were interested in doing the work on the Carver. I then spoke to Carver who were in the process of looking for companies to be servicing agents. Anyway, RTCC are now servicing agents and they have a couple of technicians who have a good grasp now of the Carver and have been doing the recall stuff and general servicing on a number of the UK Carvers.

What I learnt from this is that when you become a servicing agent/dealer then you have access to the Carver extranet on on there there is a full library workshop manual for each section of the Carver with colour photo's etc. There are service bulletins, recall notices and so on all with colour photo's and descriptions. The service routines are there as well.

So it may be that the service centres/dealers in other locations may not have been onto the site to get that information. I would suggest that you get the agent nearest to you to go online and get the info. It is all on pdf format.

If you think the issues on Carvers are bad news, you should try being a Lamborghini or Aston Martin owner and the Aston is now a mass produced car! I know it can be frustrating waiting to get things done but a little bit of patience makes things a lot easier. I don't know why some people haven't been aware of the recall items needed. Because the UK distributor went out of businees Carver europe contact UK owners direct with the info. I can only guess that for countries with a distributor/dealer, the info would have gone to them.

[NortonF1]

What I learnt from this is that when you become a servicing agent/dealer then you have access to the Carver extranet on on there there is a full library workshop manual for each section of the Carver with colour photo's etc. There are service bulletins, recall notices and so on all with colour photo's and descriptions. The service routines are there as well.



Hello shooter,

I have access to the carver-extranet.com website, the only two things You can find there are the 1.000km and the 10.000km inspection guidelines (and a webcam that is supposed to show the production line but is out of service since october 2008).

No recalls, no service bulletins, no 20k, 30k etc maintenance.

Carverconcept for example has Carver ones with more than 30.000 km on them, and Carver doesn't even have the maintenance ready yet, no workshop manual and almost no support for the shop that Carverconcept and I have chosen for our vehicles as maintenance support.

That is the situation we are facing, and delivery times for simple things like mirrors of 3 months for a vehicle that is less than 1 year old are just ridiculous and totally unacceptable!

[Riko Kruit]

shooter is right, everything is available on the Carver extranet.

for service, maintenance, service-campaigns and recalls you can turn to your Carver specialist garage or the importer.

for any other questions Carver Europe BV is available with their technical support team and should there be a bigger problem we even have a video-live-stream available for help.

this is more than any other small car brand has is place for technical issues and after sales.

luckily more than 200 Carver one drivers are happy with their vehicle and the technical service we provide. it is too bad that none of the two complaining owners accept our offers to solve their situation and stick to their own solutions.

again, any questions on this issue, please contact me by phone

[carverconcept]

I have had my Carver since April and it has had a number of things done to it which were official recall items. In the UK, the importer/distributor went out of business without a service network in place.

As I have several other vehicles that are hand made in small numbers, I already appreciate that there will always be glitches/ocasional build quality/fitment issues compared to a mass produce by computer controlled machinery vehicles. Therefore, I am a lot more ambivolent about my Carver. Yes it can be frustrating waiting for parts but I guess we should expect that given that the wait time from order to build was almost 2 years.

Anyway, as there was no official servicing network in the UK I spoke to my Morgan garage, www.rtcc.co.uk (http://www.rtcc.co.uk) to see if they were interested in doing the work on the Carver. I then spoke to Carver who were in the process of looking for companies to be servicing agents. Anyway, RTCC are now servicing agents and they have a couple of technicians who have a good grasp now of the Carver and have been doing the recall stuff and general servicing on a number of the UK Carvers.

What I learnt from this is that when you become a servicing agent/dealer then you have access to the Carver extranet on on there there is a full library workshop manual for each section of the Carver with colour photo's etc. There are service bulletins, recall notices and so on all with colour photo's and descriptions. The service routines are there as well.

So it may be that the service centres/dealers in other locations may not have been onto the site to get that information. I would suggest that you get the agent nearest to you to go online and get the info. It is all on pdf format.

If you think the issues on Carvers are bad news, you should try being a Lamborghini or Aston Martin owner and the Aston is now a mass produced car! I know it can be frustrating waiting to get things done but a little bit of patience makes things a lot easier. I don't know why some people haven't been aware of the recall items needed. Because the UK distributor went out of businees Carver europe contact UK owners direct with the info. I can only guess that for countries with a distributor/dealer, the info would have gone to them.

Shooter, thanks for sharing your experiences with us!

I heared about this Extranet for service partners, the one or two available partners in Germany seem to have access to this site as well. However, some kind of vanity fair stopps our local distributor from sharing it with other interested workshops. My impression is that he want's to concentrate all his revenues/jobs near his hometown to be able to control this.

Fair enough I thought at the beginning.

But unfortunately this behaviour is not very handy for any client, especially when you're not happy with the workshop you are supposed to go to (car needed to be brought in a few times as the same issues repeated again and again, just one technician doing all the work, no feedback about progress, waiting month for getting your car back, etc etc).

Giving you just one choice is not enough I think. Especially in a country with more than 82 million citizens.

No wonder we are looking for other options now!

[Riko Kruit]

just for information to the forum visitors
I presume the below pictures show that everything is available

I will stop this discussion 100% now


http://i42.tinypic.com/3451xf7.jpg


http://i42.tinypic.com/286zko8.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/5uo682.jpg

[Chuck]

I have access to the carver-extranet.com website, the only two things You can find there are the 1.000km and the 10.000km inspection guidelines (and a webcam that is supposed to show the production line but is out of service since october 2008).


I am pretty sure that you and I have a generic login account for the clients, not for the dealers and service agents. This may explain why your access is filtered. This generic client account lets me see all the maintenance documents from 0 to 160k. However, like you, I do not see the recalls.

The webcam was definitely not "out of service" since October because I only got access starting October 31st, 2008, and I visited the webcam page numerous times throughout November and, I'm fairly certain, the first week of December.

The webcam page explained the reason for being "out of service" was because they were changing the location. Since this is probably not a trival thing, especially with the holidays in between, I wasn't surprised that it's not back online and I can't say that I sorely miss it or that my Carver experience has somehow suffered from this.

[NortonF1]

I am pretty sure that you and I have a generic login account for the clients, not for the dealers and service agents. This may explain why your access is filtered. This generic client account lets me see all the maintenance documents from 0 to 160k. However, like you, I do not see the recalls.



This is exactly what I mean, they (Carver Europe) are not cooperating at all, exactly this is the information we need for properly maintaining our vehicles, and they are keeping it secret inspite the fact that according to European rules they are obliged to give this information to ANY qualified repair shop!

[Riko Kruit]

any official Carver service dealer will have a trained technician and a login to the extranet information. any client will have a login to the normal maintenance documents.

this is normal procedure for any car brand. the service centre Hoell never aplied to be an official Carver service dealer.

again, I would like to stop the "mud-throwing" now and expect every forum visitor to make his or her own decision in this on what is true or not. should anyone wish to have more onformation on this matter, please feel free to contact me at any time.

carve'on!

[Donald1800]

Well, based upon everything posted here, it appears that the comments/complaints made by the Carver owners have been officially confirmed. It is too bad that the company has taken this position which is detrimental to it's own customers, AND causes potential customers to think twice about buying. This looks counter-productive to me.

Donald1800

[Derwin]

Well, based upon everything posted here, it appears that the comments/complaints made by the Carver owners have been officially confirmed.

Donald1800

Where have they "officially" been confirmed? Maybe I missed something, but I don't think anything has been officially confirmed about the accusations being leveled in this thread.

I have been contacted by the Carver owner who has been making the claims, and I have also been contacted by Carver. Without going into great detail, I can say that the stories don't add-up, and that Carver has indeed been on top of any situation that may arise. This is what I've been told, anyway.

As to the vehicle that flipped on its side..... The owner posted months ago about this incident, and stated that it was an inexperienced driver on a slick track. It was NOT due to a failure in the system. If the Carver owner got reimbursed by his insurance for the "totaled" vehicle, then all should be well. If Carver did not want to touch the vehicle because it was in such disrepair, I wouldn't blame them, seriously.

It seems the owner then took the totaled carver to an unauthorized shop to get fixed, and now is experiencing this DVC failure problem. I can't see how any reasonable person can blame Carver for this. If the vehicle was totaled, and the owner received payment for the vehicle, then it should just be junked in my opinion. And if the owner then attempts to get it repaired, it's a risk he takes entirely on his own.

Anyway, I think I've said way too much. I'll shut up now! :shup:

Derwin

[NortonF1]

Derwin,

just to put some things right: The Carver that had the accident on the Nürbuirgring is my Carver. It had the DVC failure BEFORE that accident!

The Carver One was only minor damage, bujt due to the fact that the spare part prices for a Carver One are astronomically high an from the technical specialist that rared the damage a complete new body was considered and taken into calculation it was considered MONEYWISE a total loss.

It could be repaired by Höll for much less and is back in good shape, everything is fine except that it needs a wheel alignment and Carver Europe is holding back the information how it isdone!

The Carver One that had the accident following the DVC failure is the one of NZPeter, and I told You privately why he had to withdraw the postings in the Carver-tuning.nl forum.

Please stick to the facts!

Thank You!

[Derwin]

The Carver One that had the accident following the DVC failure is the one of NZPeter, and I told You privately why he had to withdraw the postings in the Carver-tuning.nl forum.

Please stick to the facts!

Thank You!

Well, the problem with this is that "the facts" are different depending on who I talk to. You have contacted me privately with some information (which I did not divulge), and I have also been contacted by officials at Carver.

All I can say is that the stories don't add up. Somebody is not telling the complete truth, and I have no idea who it is.

For now, I guess you guys just have to settle this between yourselves. But be sure of one thing.....you will NEVER be kept from posting your thoughts to this forum. As long as they are on subject, and do not flame another member. If you are having problems with your Carver, feel free to post your circumstances here. That is what an open forum is all about.

Derwin

[Donald1800]

any official Carver service dealer will have a trained technician and a login to the extranet information. any client will have a login to the normal maintenance documents.

this is normal procedure for any car brand. the service centre Hoell never aplied to be an official Carver service dealer.

"This is exactly what I mean, they (Carver Europe) are not cooperating at all, exactly this is the information we need for properly maintaining our vehicles, and they are keeping it secret inspite the fact that according to European rules they are obliged to give this information to ANY qualified repair shop!"
---
My opinion stated above is clearly supported by these and related statements made elsewhere throughout this thread.

I have no problem with other's viewpoint or perspective - believe whatever you wish. Here, to me, it is clear that

1. Carver does NOT have an approved service dealer anywhere near the customer's location

2. Carver restricts major service information preventing owners from properly repairing seriously damaged vehicles short of shipping them out of the country to the nearest approved service dealer

3. In typical bureaucratic fashion, attempts at corrective action by customers in distress through public exposure are met with denial, deception (smoke and mirrors) and guilt transfer.

I have seen this a few times right here on this forum.

Donald1800

[Chuck]

I have no problem with other's viewpoint or perspective - believe whatever you wish. Here, to me, it is clear that

1. Carver does NOT have an approved service dealer anywhere near the customer's location

2. Carver restricts major service information preventing owners from properly repairing seriously damaged vehicles short of shipping them out of the country to the nearest approved service dealer

3. In typical bureaucratic fashion, attempts at corrective action by customers in distress through public exposure are met with denial, deception (smoke and mirrors) and guilt transfer.

I have seen this a few times right here on this forum.

Donald1800

Here's what I have observed on this and the other DVC thread in this forum and personally discovered through interaction with the folks you refer to. I'll use your numbers above as reference:

1) Are Shooter and I the only ones that realize how brand new this vehicle and its company are? We're not talking about a company with 300,000 vehicles produced every year for the last half a century. I think we're still within the first 12 months of official production and only 300 or so vehicles are out there.

So exactly how many service/repair shops can you fairly demand for those kinds of numbers?

I bought the 163rd, hand-made Carver One from a dealer about 560 miles from my home and I did so knowing the consequences for service and repair. At least one of these two complaining folks has a repair shop about 155 miles from his home. Both of them had to know precisely what the distance was to their nearest service technician when they bought theirs and it's really disingenuous to beat on the Carver company for this.

2) Carver, like any manufacturer that I know of, is restricting their information on a need to know basis. Trained/authorized service technicians have a need to know. As I mentioned above, there aren't that many Carver Ones out there and they're very complex vehicles. So, if the Carver company is the one risking legal retribution through possible failures, I think it's only fair that they get to determine what and who is qualified to give their vehicles the health and safety stamp of approval.

Regarding the implied obligation for Carver to open their entire knowledge-base to the world at large, I have no idea whether this is an abnormal demand or if other manufacturers do this kind of thing all the time.

3) My own Carver One has had some teething problems and the Carver company HQ has made significant efforts to be flexible with me. During the two times that I have needed help, they made and kept generous gentleman's agreements, they've been conscientiously proactive and they've been completely open about potential risks, costs and problems. I've come to them with my hat in hand and they've gone way beyond the call of duty considering the risk I took by buying one so far away. Just like with Shooter (quoted above), they've worked with me to turn my preferred, local repair shop into an authorized Carver repair shop.

Even ignoring my own experiences with the Carver company, I still can't see this as a case of the faceless bureaucratic machine versus an innocent pair of distressed customers.

For example, if I totaled my Carver, then I would sure as !@#$ listen when the manufacturer says they wouldn't dare give it a stamp of health and safety for further driving after any kind of "repair" attempt. But to completely ignore such a warning and then complain in "fear" about "driving a time-bomb" is just really over the top.

Both of these folks have introduced topically irrelevant, provably untrue assertions which distract from the original DVC misunderstanding that spawned the two threads. First, they unnecessarily embarrassed the man who originally reported the DVC failure by forcing somebody to expose that his DVC problem was self-inflicted because a vital update was ignored. Then they started making various accusations and grandiose claims of imminent legal action and revocation of EU certification. This all gives me the sense that they wanted to cloud the original issue by trying to leave readers with the sense that "surely something must be wrong somewhere".

As an interesting side note, I posted similar thoughts in an unabridged, stern fashion on the blog owned by one of these two folks and guess what happened: It was removed within about six hours without comment and without my knowledge or permission. Now what does that say about moral authority regarding censorship?

[Chuck]

the blog owned by

I should have said "the blog administered by"

[Derwin]

During the two times that I have needed help, they made and kept generous gentleman's agreements, they've been conscientiously proactive and they've been completely open about potential risks, costs and problems. I've come to them with my hat in hand and they've gone way beyond the call of duty considering the risk I took by buying one so far away.

Chuck, Good to hear from you! I was contacted by officials at Carver, and they explained this situation very clearly. As a result, I decided to step back and simply be a spectator in this matter. The people at Carver spoke on the condition that I not post anything, so I am abiding by that agreement. Needless to say, I agree with your assessment of things.



As an interesting side note, I posted similar thoughts in an unabridged, stern fashion on the blog owned by one of these two folks and guess what happened: It was removed within about six hours without comment and without my knowledge or permission. Now what does that say about moral authority regarding censorship?

I find that to be very interesting, since one of the gentlemen was very upset when a certain thread was taken down on a forum because it was discussing this DVC issue. They thought it was a form of censorship, and I'm surprised that now they took YOUR thread down simply because you were stating your point of view, and shedding a little bit more light on things.

We all know that any owner/admin of a forum can take a post and/or thread down for any reason whatsoever. But I find it very difficult to understand them not allowing you to present your opinion/facts, especially since they were so upset over another forum owner taking THEIR posts down. It's rather bewildering to me.

With a very NEW vehicle on the market, I think owners should have the FREEDOM to discuss things like this OPENLY without fear of reprisal. One thing that YOU, and all others can be assured of, is that your posts will NOT be taken down unless they violate club policy. You can speak your mind freely here, as long as you respect another persons point of view, or at least their right to express it.

Derwin